A litany of questions...

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 31st October 2013 - 5:19pm

Went out and took a look at the 412 today, to familiarise myself with the engine...

First things first, the Haynes Manual lacks a lot of information about what the engine bay should look like on a 1795cc LS, if anyone can point me to a better source of information and pictures I'd appreciate it.

Next I noticed the carpet was wet in the nearside rear, next to the tailgate, but the window rubbers appear ok in that area, and the seal around the tailgate seems fine, does anyone have an idea of the likely area I need to be looking at to stop this, cheers.

I'm not sure of the air piping on the engine that is missing, I appear to have at least one missing either side, and in the nearside engine bay theres a round hole through to the inner wing that looks like it might have one had a fitting attached. There are two inlets/outlet tinware pieces near the fan shroud either side of the engine, the one on the nearside is round, the one on the offside is in a similar place but is a 'squashed' round pipe shape, there's another existing pipe running from the front of the engine to the offside inner wing, and there's a plastic fitting screwed/bolted to the inner wing. It's a bit dark now for pictures, but I'll post some soon to show what I mean.

I've also noted that a spring clip and screw on the offside carburettor is missing, there's one on the nearside that holds the air cleaner into the carb, I don't suppose a spare one of these is knocking about in anyone's toolbox? I also noted that the rubber seals that are supposed to seal the two carb fittings of the air cleaner to the middle section are not doing the job at all, probably not going to help tuning the carbs. There's a similar set up in the Type 3, and that (on mine at least), uses rubber strips and a sort of funny shaped jubilee type fitting to maintain the air seal...I'm wondering whether the parts are interchangeable and whether I can get hold of these, ha.

Apart from the above, the petrol and vacuum pipes need replacing, which is not unexpected.

I removed two of three inspection plates forward of the engine inspection panel in the rear load floor, and couldn't see a lot (the light was going by then), but there was a third one near the offside wheel I couldn't work out how to remove, any ideas what these are for gentlemen?

I was looking for the Supplementary Heater, but it would appear this is only accessible from underneath the car, possibly with the engine out, I need to take a look because I don't know what is missing, apart from the heater exhaust, however, it might be present because I hear the motor whirring every time the ignition is switched on. If I put it on ramps. will I have any access, at least to see what might be missing?

The battery is flat, not sure what is draining it, but it might be duff, but starts the engine after a charge overnight, I'm missing the bolt for the battery clamp, anyone know what size and thread I should get?

Another annoying thing is the knob is missing off the glove box locking mechanism, anyone got one of these going spare or any idea what should fit?

The gear stick is also a bowl of soup with all the gears in there somewhere, a friend has given me a metal part that fits most VW air cooled gear sticks, looks like a diamond and square shaped aluminium part, with a few extra bits, is this a big job to do?

Last thing, the petrol filler pipe, there's supposed to be something to hold this steady within the wing under the filler flap, I expect it used to be a reinforced rubber or plastic fitting, anyone have a solution that fits/works for this?

I'll get on with some pictures tomorrow, but if anyone can offer some insight I'd appreciate it, thanks.

shawn71 · Post by **shawn71** » 31st October 2013 - 5:50pm

Wireless wrote:Went out and took a look at the 412 today, to familiarise myself with the engine...

First things first, the Haynes Manual lacks a lot of information about what the engine bay should look like on a 1795cc LS, if anyone can point me to a better source of information and pictures I'd appreciate it.

Don't know about this one as mine is FI,

Next I noticed the carpet was wet in the nearside rear, next to the tailgate, but the window rubbers appear ok in that area, and the seal around the tailgate seems fine, does anyone have an idea of the likely area I need to be looking at to stop this, cheers.

This could be due to the lip under the boot seal being corroded, seal looks good but heavy rain gets through, doers on mine anyway!

I'm not sure of the air piping on the engine that is missing, I appear to have at least one missing either side, and in the nearside engine bay theres a round hole through to the inner wing that looks like it might have one had a fitting attached. There are two inlets/outlet tinware pieces near the fan shroud either side of the engine, the one on the nearside is round, the one on the offside is in a similar place but is a 'squashed' round pipe shape, there's another existing pipe running from the front of the engine to the offside inner wing, and there's a plastic fitting screwed/bolted to the inner wing. It's a bit dark now for pictures, but I'll post some soon to show what I mean.

I think it would be the intake for the blower fan that should be sat in the rear nearside corner of the engine bay. It draws air from there before blowing it through each heat exchanger via a 'Y' splitter thingy. From the heat exchangers air is then pushed through the Eberspacer before finally going through the heater channels

I've also noted that a spring clip and screw on the offside carburettor is missing, there's one on the nearside that holds the air cleaner into the carb, I don't suppose a spare one of these is knocking about in anyone's toolbox? I also noted that the rubber seals that are supposed to seal the two carb fittings of the air cleaner to the middle section are not doing the job at all, probably not going to help tuning the carbs. There's a similar set up in the Type 3, and that (on mine at least), uses rubber strips and a sort of funny shaped jubilee type fitting to maintain the air seal...I'm wondering whether the parts are interchangeable and whether I can get hold of these, ha.

Don't know, if it drys up and I can get into the shed I might have one although most of the stuff I have acquired is FI related

Apart from the above, the petrol and vacuum pipes need replacing, which is not unexpected.

Better safe than sorry

I removed two of three inspection plates forward of the engine inspection panel in the rear load floor, and couldn't see a lot (the light was going by then), but there was a third one near the offside wheel I couldn't work out how to remove, any ideas what these are for gentlemen?

I'll have to check on mine but at least one of these should gain access to the top of the Eberspacer just above its coil pack and glow pluggy thing

I was looking for the Supplementary Heater, but it would appear this is only accessible from underneath the car, possibly with the engine out, I need to take a look because I don't know what is missing, apart from the heater exhaust, however, it might be present because I hear the motor whirring every time the ignition is switched on. If I put it on ramps. will I have any access, at least to see what might be missing?

It's located above the gear box and I suspect it is missing from what you have said so far. There should be NO power going to any heater related bits unless the heater lever between the seats is up (completes the earth there), the heater switch on the dash is on and the all the fuses under the rear seat are intact and the safety trip on the relay isn't thrown

The battery is flat, not sure what is draining it, but it might be duff, but starts the engine after a charge overnight, I'm missing the bolt for the battery clamp, anyone know what size and thread I should get?

Not the top of my head and it does sound like the battery is dying

Another annoying thing is the knob is missing off the glove box locking mechanism, anyone got one of these going spare or any idea what should fit?

Again might have one in the shed, is it just the rubbery bit?

The gear stick is also a bowl of soup with all the gears in there somewhere, a friend has given me a metal part that fits most VW air cooled gear sticks, looks like a diamond and square shaped aluminium part, with a few extra bits, is this a big job to do?

Sounds like a quick shift thingy, easy enough to fit but doesn't really solve the problem as it is just meant to reduce the distance the gear stick moves between gear changes

Last thing, the petrol filler pipe, there's supposed to be something to hold this steady within the wing under the filler flap, I expect it used to be a reinforced rubber or plastic fitting, anyone have a solution that fits/works for this?

I think I have read somewhere that someone used the rubber sucker end from a sink plunger and just cut a hole in it for the pipe to fit through, once again these parts are no longer made for the Type 4 and I'm not to sure if another model will fit although I read a long time ago someone found an air con gasket from an audi that they managed to get to work but these could be just urban myths...

I'll get on with some pictures tomorrow, but if anyone can offer some insight I'd appreciate it, thanks.

Pics would be good

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 31st October 2013 - 8:34pm

Cheers, I've been concentrating on the T3 since buying the T4 in July, it's getting there, just a few things to sort out. I've been a bit busy lately, I get the pictures tomorrow. On the glove box I have a square metal fitting I have to twist, I suspect it's a rubber or rubber and plastic knob that pushes on there.

You'll have to let me know how much you want for these bits, but thanks for being able to answer as many questions as you have, I appear to be the only person locally with a T4, so it's a steep learning curve, especially when all I have for reference is a Haynes Manual.

Post by **937carrera** » 31st October 2013 - 11:32pm

Well, I have a '73 LS, so we should be able to check parts / layouts fairly readily.

The access ports in the load area give access to replace / check some heater components. The heater itself is accessible from underneath. Officially I think you need to remove a driveshaft to get the heater out from on top of the gearbox, I can't remember if you "really" have to do that.

What I can certainly help with is the gear change. Take a look at my thread viewtopic.php?f=26&t=8712

You can replace the front bush without removing the gearbox

. Short shift kits are extensively sold, I have always been advised not to fit them.

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 1st November 2013 - 12:36pm

Pictures of the Damp area...

Any idea what these pair of holes is for?

These are the three access holes forward of the engine lid, still no idea how to take the one on the right off, I don't want to force it and break it, any ideas?

Through the two holes, I had a feel around but there's nothing under there that I can touch...

General view of the top of the engine, you'll have to tell me what's missing...

Nearside and offside inlet/outlet pipes in tinware, what goes here?

The existing pipe I mentioned that comes from the front of the engine and bolts to the offside inner rear wing...

Nearside and offside air cleaner spring clips onto carburettor bodies, the one is missing, anyone got a spare?

View of the hole in the nearside inner rear wing, first is a bit dark, I'm using an iPhone

Dodgy looking air seals on the air cleaner joints...

Some sort of control rod, it appears the rubber/plastic sheath it used to be inside is shattered and long gone...

Missing knob off the Glove Box...

Missing bolt for the Battery Clamp, anyone know the size I need to get?

The rubber/plastic carrier for the petrol filler pipe is past it's best, anyone know of a solution to sort this?

Cheers 937carrera, I'll have a look at that.

Post by **purplepeter** » 1st November 2013 - 12:56pm

Simon Kelley has the fuel filler neck grommets, You can reach him via ebay http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/notch1500/
Air filter seals: Find a wheelbarrow inner tube & cut segments out of it
I don't know Type 4's enough to comment,but I think Your mystery control rod minus its sheath may actually be the dipstick?

shawn71 · Post by **shawn71** » 1st November 2013 - 6:18pm

I agree with Peter that the 'control rod' is your dip stick. There should be a plastic/rubber sleeve there.

The Eber is indeed missing. Should be easily visible through the inspection plates and as such you shouldn't be able to see the clutch slave. Therefore the hole on the nearside wing is the fresh air intake for the blower unit that should be just in that rear corner. The holes through you tin are where the blower should be blowing its air through the heat exchangers. Might be easier in the long run to fit Type 2 heat exchangers rather trying to source the Eber, its fuel pump, relays etc and blank those holes of and connect the heat exchangers straight to the heater channels if that hasn't already been done.

That tube/pipe from the O/S wing area looks like the fresh air feed for the air filter? My FI draws its fresh air from the same place but the filter is located where the O/S carb is on yours.

Post by **937carrera** » 1st November 2013 - 6:53pm

I'm reasonably sure that the stud for the battery clamp will be standard M8, i.e uses a 13mm nut.

You car seems to have an additional breather pipe on the right hand side duct from the air cleaner to the carb, and more significantly doesn't even look like a '73 412 air cleaner as mine is square and yours is round. Perhaps it's from a type 3 ? Can you see if they are the correct 36-40PDSIT carbs ?

The return spring for the accelerator linkage also looks non standard, with the addition of an extra clamp attached to the coil.

The disptick looks in pretty poor condition - it should unscrew and pull out in a straight line and as Peter and Shawn say there should be a connecting rubber tube / grommet between the engine and body. You might find that the oil filler to the right is tight and difficult to undo. Many people are too enthusiastic when tightening them

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 1st November 2013 - 8:49pm

Cheers purplepeter, I've sent Simon a message to see whether he is able to help, it does look like crow magnum man has forced the dipstick into the engine, I'll have to source a new tube/sleeve from somewhere and straighten the dipstick.

Thanks for the info shawn71.

I'll try an M8 to see if it'll fit. I'll also take some pictures of the T3 twin carb, however, I'm pretty certain it's completely different on the T3, a flatter design, plus the air cleaner is secured to the carburettor bodies by large wing nuts from above each carb.

I'll take close ups of the carbs, but as I understand it the are 40mm Solex and completely standard for the 1795 engine, pictures will reveal all.

Seems I've got a bit of work to do on the engine before moving onto anything else, ha.

Post by **937carrera** » 1st November 2013 - 9:10pm

So, I went to Google to see if I could get a photo of a 412LS engine bay, and guess what I found......

a thread on here with pictures of my car

, taken when Richard, the previous owner bought it.

viewtopic.php?t=2469

The first photo is as good as any I would have taken tomorrow, in fact the car still has the brown parcel tape around the air inlet

Here's another picture thread I found http://vwlinkan.se/412/Galleri4/Landgre ... en412e.htm, this Swedish car looks tidy

Post by **937carrera** » 1st November 2013 - 9:42pm

I have just been looking at the Haynes manual. Page 48 has a picture of the air cleaner / carburettor arrangement on the early 411, despite looking I can't find any pictures online for you.

It looks like this is what is fitted to your car, which would mean 34 PDSIT carbs I believe, is the engine perhaps from a 411 ?

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 1st November 2013 - 10:36pm

I forget the whole engine number, but I'm sure it starts with CB, and checking the information on this forum, that doesn't seem to correlate with anything.

Yes, too dark and wet out there at the minute to see the carbs, but I noticed the engine number earlier on because it had been cleaned to reveal just the number, just been out and the engine number is CB003660, I suppose there's a chance it's out of a Late Bay, but now I've no idea what capacity it is, ha, gets better and better.

Ok, it's a 1700cc twin carb, out of a T2 according to TheSamba.com, built 1972/73, which is odd, because you'd have thought they would have just rebuilt the existing 1973 1800cc engine, so very odd.

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 1st November 2013 - 11:33pm

I'll have to check on the carbs, see what the model numbers are stamped on the bodies, but one thing that's odd is that the volume control screws are operated by plastic taps that are easily turned by hand, so I suspect these would have been more suited to the engine bay of a T2, as it's a bit more cramped in there.

Post by **937carrera** » 2nd November 2013 - 7:17am

Wireless wrote:Ok, it's a 1700cc twin carb, out of a T2 according to TheSamba.com, built 1972/73, which is odd, because you'd have thought they would have just rebuilt the existing 1973 1800cc engine, so very odd.

It's not that surprising really when a second hand working engine is almost always cheaper than the cost of a rebuild and quicker to get back on the road. I suppose you have to be a real enthusiast to be prepared to lay the extra dosh out for the sake of originality and correct engine numbers

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 2nd November 2013 - 8:05pm

Yes you're right, it's likely they just swapped the complete engine, but I'll check the carb stampings on Monday, you never know, someone could have swapped the barrels and pistons, could be anything in there.

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 4th November 2013 - 4:27pm

purplepeter wrote:Simon Kelley has the fuel filler neck grommets, You can reach him via ebay http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/notch1500/
Air filter seals: Find a wheelbarrow inner tube & cut segments out of it
I don't know Type 4's enough to comment,but I think Your mystery control rod minus its sheath may actually be the dipstick?

Just to update everyone, this is now a dead lead for fuel filler neck grommets, I've been in contact with Simon Kelly and he cannot provide a solution.

Been busy with the Type 3 today shifting a couple of old sofas to the tip, not had a chance to look at carburettor bodies on the 412.

shawn71 · Post by **shawn71** » 4th November 2013 - 7:16pm

Here's a link to shoptalkforums where they discuss the filler boot

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=613006

Not had time to look in shed but I'm sure I have a glove box catch in there

Post by **purplepeter** » 4th November 2013 - 10:37pm

ISP was going to be my next suggestion-Either pm Dpetteng on here & ask if He's going again? Or try coolair/heritage/Karmann konnection

Post by **purplepeter** » 4th November 2013 - 10:40pm

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Typ-3-Fuel ... 53f93865f1

It says not type 4 in the text,but I think it is

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 5th November 2013 - 3:23am

Cheers guys, perhaps Simon genuinely doesn't know that the Type 3 filler neck grommet fits the Type 4, I've ordered one on the basis that if its the wrong one I still have a car to fit it to...eventually.

Also managed to pick up a rear bumper from AutoBahn last Sunday (Dubreeze 2 or BusFreeze I think it used to be). It was labelled for a Type 4 68-74 only, it's a European late model rear bumper, with a few minor surface scratches I can live with, but no rust what-so-ever, so bought that for the Type 3, which has a couple of rust holes in the current one. I paid £75 and thought it a very good deal.

Type 3 did an average of 29.8 mpg on that day, its pretty gutless as it has the wrong dizzy, its not a T3 dizzy, but I'll just have to live with it for a while, and am thinking of a programmable advance curve on an electronic dizzy at some point.

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » 12th November 2013 - 1:00pm

The Type 3 Filler Neck Grommet is Identical to the one fitted to the Type 4, so dead pleased with that.

Also, best picture I could get of the Carburettor Stampings. looks like its a 1679cc engine...

Post by **937carrera** » 12th November 2013 - 11:31pm

Everything seems to be pointing towards it being a 1700cc motor in your type 4.

Thanks for posting a picture of the filler neck rubber - I just ordered one as well, that's another of those hard to find parts sourced

Post by **Editor** » 13th November 2013 - 1:07am

Some Type 4s had a fancy filler neck gasket, with a flap that protected the wing from dribbles or knocks from the filler nozzle; 411 821 443 to '70, or 443A from '71. That's probably why there's a bit of confusion. The ring that holds it in is a 311 part, so they probably just got rid of the flap. I saw one on a stand somewhere many years ago - wondered what it was all about.

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