Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Questions and general discussion on all things Type 3 & 4
User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 9th December 2013 - 4:45pm

I sent both V5s and the Birth Certificate for KSN367L, my Type 3 Squareback, and the letter from the museum for YRO418N that states it was built between August 1973 and December 1973, they sent a letter instead of a Birth Certificate because the Microfiche has deteriorated and is illegible to be able to create a Birth Certificate.

This is the letter

(Deleted)

The V5 for KSN367L was returned, but its been over a week since then, so I rang DVLA today and asked why the V5 for YRO418N hasn't been returned.

Seems the DVLA don't believe the letter from the Musuem regarding YRO418N, and they have written to the Historic Volkswagen Club in the UK for verification. I'm not a member of this Historic Volkswagen Club.

Anyone know why DVLA would believe a Birth Certificate produced by the Museum but not a letter? They were sent in the same package via the Shrewsbury DVLA Office (since closed permanently). who verified the original documents and took photocopies.

If the Historic Volkswagen Club don't respond by 20th November it sounds like the DVLA will deny my Historic Vehicle Exemption from April 2014, there must be a number of 411/412 owners with vehicles manufactured around the same time that have similarly affected Microfiche records and will have to submit a similar letter to the DVLA.

Bureaucracy gone mad.
Last edited by Wireless on 22nd February 2014 - 1:04am, edited 1 time in total.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
Editor
Posts: 5498
Joined: 10th October 2004 - 8:52pm
Location: Pensford, Bristol
Contact:

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Editor » 10th December 2013 - 2:32am

When the Historic Class was broughtin, certain organisations were approved for verification purposes. Although the VW Type 3&4 Club was not on the approved list, they have accepted letters in the past without any problem.

If you can contact Rod Sleigh at the Historic VW Club, he used to have a Type 4 and I am sure would be happy to confirm things, or speed their response.

You could refer them to the VW Type 3&4 Club website at http://home.clara.net/hallvw/type4/t4chengnos.htm where the chassis numbers for the 1973/4 production shows the Dec 1973 chassis number as 414 2023 434, but you might need to explain that was the sedan, and the Variant VIN starts 46...
Dave.

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 10th December 2013 - 6:16pm

I'm afraid I've already had a set to with Rod Sleigh, and want nothing to do with the Historic VW Club, and as he seems to also be the contact for the Volkswagen Owners Club, I'm afraid that on principle I cannot contact either of those clubs.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
Editor
Posts: 5498
Joined: 10th October 2004 - 8:52pm
Location: Pensford, Bristol
Contact:

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Editor » 10th December 2013 - 9:55pm

Shame about that. I may be confusing the two organisations anyway. There's VWOCGB (certainly Rod is/was involved with that), there's also the Association of British VW Clubs (ABVWC ) which the VW Type 3&4 Club belongs to. They might forward it to us in that case. I remember the Historic VW Club stand 30 years ago seemed to be two or three old guys in tent (not only the cars were historic!), but they had quite a readable newsletter/magazine.
Dave.

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 10th December 2013 - 11:03pm

I wondered whether the Type 3 & 4 Club might be a member of the ABVWC, that would certainly be the way forward, I'd prefer to do it via that route if possible, cheers.

However, the current position has short circuited the normal application process (that Rod was at pains to describe), since I approached my local DVLA Office in Shrewsbury for advise on confirming the build date of both the Type 3 and Type 4. They decided to photocopy and verify the evidence, and take the front part of each V5, and send them to Swansea, I wasn't required to fill out any forms.

I suspect as they were all about to be made redundant, the Shrewsbury DVLA Office is now permanently closed, that they couldn't be bothered to find out the correct procedure or didn't really care.

The Type 3 had a UK Registration of 1992 (imported from Cyprus), and had an age related plate, but I wanted make sure they recorded it as built in 1973, so provided the Birth Certificate, at the same time, the Type 4 was UK Registered in September 1974 (YRO418N), but the Construction Plate indicated a Build Date of October 1973, unfortunately due to the illegible Microfiche Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen could only verify that it was built between August and December 1973, so produced the Letter which accompanied the V5 to Swansea.

The Type 3 came back with a note on the V5 indicating a 1973 Build Date, so that was fine, but the V5 for the Type 4 appeared delayed, a telephone call to the DVLA and I was told that they had referred the Letter to Volkswagen, to verify it as an Historic Vehicle, and that they had until 20th November to respond (I'm assuming they meant 20th December, but who knows the call was made on 9th December), however, the document reference on the V5 for the Type 3 is 26th November, so they must have looked at both V5s and the evidence on that day.

Rob Sleigh is Secretary for the Historic VW Club and the VW Owners Club, listed on the DVLA V765 list, and he hasn't received anything from the DVLA, so maybe it is at the ABVWC waiting to be referred to the Type 3 & 4 Club? Or more likely, because I wasn't required to fill out forms in Shrewsbury, it now remains in limbo as the ABVWC has received it but doesn't have any VW Club to refer the DVLA letter to? Your guess is as good as mine on this.

How do I proceed? It appears the Shrewsbury DVLA Local Office has managed to confuse everyone.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
mjrpoulton
Posts: 126
Joined: 29th October 2004 - 5:40pm
Location: Chester, Cheshire

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by mjrpoulton » 11th December 2013 - 11:53pm

The V765 process has not changed but the closure of the local offices means that original docs can be certified by authorised clubs prior to sending to DVLA. Sounds like the office you dealt with were in close down mode.

I am the authorised (V765/1 list) contact for KGOC GB and Rod similarly for HSVWC and VOC. Your only option left if if DVLA do not accept the VW letter is probably John Daniel at ABVWC - jrdaniel@btinternet.com - but I would hope that the letter you have already should be good enough for them. Otherwise you will need a suitable dating letter to comply with this process.

I suspect that anything that DVLA do not immediately recognise given the volume of paper they now deal with can get slowed down - my recent experience was applying for a refund on a tax disc at the end of August and their machinery read my handwritten form V11 with two letters different in my name from that shown on the V5C! Address and vehicle (77 cabrio) unchanged but they would not process this until I explained the difference and I finally received the refund 7 weeks after submitting it!

Patience and perseverence I suspect will be essential so stick with it and best of luck - you will not get historic status until next April anyway for a 1973 built car for the nil duty tax disc so there is still 3 months to solve it.

Cheers

Mark
Mark
1975 412LS Variant (built 9/73)
1972 411LE 2 door
1968 type 345 auto
1967 type 344
1972 type 145KG (type3 engine)

User avatar
Editor
Posts: 5498
Joined: 10th October 2004 - 8:52pm
Location: Pensford, Bristol
Contact:

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Editor » 12th December 2013 - 1:52am

Also, when the zero tax rate was introduced, they refunded overpayment of duty - in one local case, the guy got the whole year's tax back once the letter confirming date of manufacture was supplied. It's not discretionary, it's the law!
Dave.

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 13th December 2013 - 2:42am

Thanks for all the responses.

Wolfgang Doerk, at the Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen can't quite believe that the DVLA relies on Private Historic Vehicle Clubs for verification purposes. I also think it's a little odd.

Anyway, I'll wait for the DVLA to actually make a decision, and see where we go from there.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 24th December 2013 - 4:31pm

Very odd, the only correspondence I've had so far from the DVLA, dated 20th December, thanks me for my application for a V5C for YRO418N, and that it is being dealt with by a Mr Davies from the Central Casework Group.

Very odd indeed.

I did contact John Daniel from the ABVWC, to advise regarding the situation, but so far I've not had any correspondence or contact returned, so I've no idea who the DVLA made contact with to verify anything.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
Editor
Posts: 5498
Joined: 10th October 2004 - 8:52pm
Location: Pensford, Bristol
Contact:

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Editor » 26th December 2013 - 1:12am

The ABVWC is an umbrella organisation for clubs, so other than to vouch for a club being legit, I'm not sure they would expect to have direct input.

There's time for it to be sorted out - very likely DVLA will come back satisfied, but if there's no resolution I can support it with a docuent from the Club explaining the chassis numbering system, and confirming the date of manufacture and validity of the museum letter, though would be less official-looking that the VW one!
Dave.

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 21st January 2014 - 11:28pm

Ok, rang DVLA today, to speak to the Case Officer.

Seems they had contact with Volkswagen UK, who confirmed the car was made in 1973, so a brand new V5 stating that the 412LS was built in 1973 is winging its way here.

Took a long time, maybe the clue that the Museum that wrote the letter is based in the old factory that built the car wasn't so obvious to them?

Anyway, job done, just need to change the taxation class of both Variants in April (assuming the Government keeps its word), to Historic Vehicles, woo hoo!!!
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
Editor
Posts: 5498
Joined: 10th October 2004 - 8:52pm
Location: Pensford, Bristol
Contact:

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Editor » 22nd January 2014 - 12:34am

Well done!
Dave.

User avatar
937carrera
Posts: 997
Joined: 7th June 2013 - 11:54pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by 937carrera » 23rd January 2014 - 12:54am

Looks like you are in a good place........... However, I have just been reading the draft legislation for Finance Act 2014. Though there provisions for changes to HGV rates, abolition of paper tax discs and introduction of payment by direct debit, I cannot find anything to do with extending the cut off date for classic cars by one year. :( I hope i am wrong
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 23rd January 2014 - 2:42am

Somewhat concerned myself, I've decided to write to the All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group


http://www.historicvehicles.org.uk/hvg3.php

'Dear Sir/Madam,

Although everyone is heartened at the news within the 2013 Budget, that Historic Vehicles Exemption to VED will be extended by 12 months to include vehicles built before 1st January 1974, which includes myself with two 1973 Volkswagen Classic Cars, I am a little concerned that the Government has forgotten this Budget pledge.

The Finance Bill 2014 includes two elements that are related to private vehicles VED, under Vehicle Excise Duty: administrative changes.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... hanges.pdf

First the proposed abandonment of the requirement to display VED on a private vehicle, and secondly the introduction of monthly Direct Debit payments with a 5% surcharge.

Whilst both are welcomed, there is no mention of an extension to Historic Vehicles Exemption for pre-1974 Classic Cars.

How exactly will this change be facilitated if no legislation has been drafted to allow it to take place?

If you are able to point me to the relevant legislation that will facilitate such an extension, I would very much appreciate it, thank you.

Yours, somewhat concerned,


Wayne Faulkner'



Lets just see what sort of response is forthcoming before we all start to spend the saved VED on our loverly motors.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

Chino
Posts: 1072
Joined: 5th January 2014 - 5:39am
Location: Stockport

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Chino » 23rd January 2014 - 9:00am

I'd be very interested to see the response, we currently have a '73 1303S we were hoping would be becoming tax exempt this year.

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 23rd January 2014 - 4:13pm

Well, I got a response, apparently as this measure isn't going to be subject to legislation, as the Chancellor has announced he will make a decision each year rather than introduce a rolling exemption, which would require legislation, it will just be announced/confirmed at the next Budget, before April.

Here's the response:

'Dear Mr Faulkner,

Thank you for your email.

Sir Greg campaigned for this change and he will not let the Government forget their commitment.

Because this is a tax rates and bands related matter no draft legislation was issued as part of the publication of the draft Finance Bill 2014 on 10 December 2013. The Government will publish the legislation when the final Finance Bill 2014 is laid in Parliament shortly after Budget 2014.

I hope that this reassures you.

Regards,
Matthew Thomas'
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
937carrera
Posts: 997
Joined: 7th June 2013 - 11:54pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by 937carrera » 23rd January 2014 - 8:36pm

Well done for getting a letter off to the right people and getting a response so quickly. :) :thumbsup:

My reading is that it will be in primary legislation after the budget, but because it's just a "rates & bands matter" (income tax is an annual tax, new legislation has to be passed each year to allow it to continue to be collected) the legislation will not be consulted on (that's what started on 10th December) and so it will just happen as part of the post budget activities. It will have to be put through Parliament though, which normally happens in July.

That perhaps leaves us in a position where we will have to pay the VED, and then claim it back ??
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 6th March 2014 - 1:38am

Gets better than that, the Budget 2014 isn't until 19th March, yet if you look at the DVLA website, it already states that Historic Vehicles are pre-1974, yet all their forms to change the vehicle taxation class are still listing pre-1973 as the cut off (actually they will accept vehicles as pre-1973 if UK Registered up to and including 7th January 1973) i do hope none of you have waited since 1997 for this change and have a vehicle UK registered within the first seven days of 1973...

I would imagine the same rule will apply, and all those vehicles UK registered within the first seven days of 1974 will be given Historic Vehicle Exemption.

However, the process hasn't yet been announced regarding changing to Historic Vehicle Class, there's no valid form to fill out, and remember the original change of classification form was created before the Internet really took off, and Access to buying Road VED wasn't even something the DVLA had thought about. We are told that how to do the change of classification will be announced nearer the date.

I highly suspect that on 1st April 2014, the change will take place automatically if you insure and MOT your car, and apply for VED online.

Those of us that have some months to run on our vehicles may be instructed to apply for Historic Vehicle Class online on 1st April, or even within the last 14 days of March. I have my Square taxed until the end of June, so I'll certainly be applying for the two months VED they owe me.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

Chino
Posts: 1072
Joined: 5th January 2014 - 5:39am
Location: Stockport

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Chino » 11th March 2014 - 2:52pm

I think I must have words with my other half...she's been taxing her '73 Beetle, with it being registered 1st January 1973 :/

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 11th March 2014 - 10:37pm

Chino wrote:I think I must have words with my other half...she's been taxing her '73 Beetle, with it being registered 1st January 1973 :/
Oh dear, UK Registered 1st January 1973 is an Historic Vehicle, someone should have pointed this out.

If she's owned it since 1997, she should be able to claim back all the tax, although they could argue that in Law you can only claim back the last seven years.

Still, that would be at least £1500, possibly in the several thousands if she's owned it since 1997.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
purplepeter
Posts: 2157
Joined: 8th August 2006 - 4:41pm
Location: Bath,Avon/Corsham,wilts

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by purplepeter » 11th March 2014 - 10:52pm

I very much doubt You'd be able to claim it back.. if it's still registered as PLG rather than Historic Vehicle
Change of taxation class was never automatic.. You always had to apply for it

User avatar
Editor
Posts: 5498
Joined: 10th October 2004 - 8:52pm
Location: Pensford, Bristol
Contact:

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Editor » 11th March 2014 - 11:58pm

They refunded a local guy a year's tax on an L-reg Type 3 that had sat in a dealership for ages before being sold, but they declined to pay him any of the overpayment made by the previous owner! I think it unlikely you would get the seven years overpayment, but definitely ask.

Extract from the DVLA website https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-exempt-from-car-tax says:-
"Historic vehicles
You don’t have to pay vehicle tax on vehicles made before 1 January 1973 (known as ‘historic vehicles’)."

The refund form V14 says "Changed to a nil value tax class
You should have already changed the vehicle’s tax class to a tax
class that is of nil value (such as ‘Disabled’). If you have not done
this yet, you should do this before you apply for a refund."

Looks like that's what you should do first, then.
Dave.

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 12th March 2014 - 2:46am

Yup, do this during the next week, then on receiving back the V5 as an Historic Vehicle, apply for a refund for all the Road Tax you've paid since you've owned the car, you'll then find out how much they are prepared to back date the overpayment of tax.

When you find out the result, please post the result on here, we'd all love to hear about your windfall.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 284
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 12:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Wireless » 12th March 2014 - 2:48am

Editor wrote:but they declined to pay him any of the overpayment made by the previous owner!
I'd have been very tempted to have informed the previous owner, even though I wouldn't benefit, I don't like the Government getting away with tax they shouldn't have collected in the first place.
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

Chino
Posts: 1072
Joined: 5th January 2014 - 5:39am
Location: Stockport

Re: Letter from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen not Genuine?

Post by Chino » 12th March 2014 - 10:09am

I shall see what we can do, thanks guys! Also, had this response from the DVLA myself:

"From 1st April 2014, vehicles registered before 1st January 1974 will now be able to change the tax class of a vehicle to Historic at a tax disc issuing Post Office providing there is a qualifying date of manufacture or registration on the V5C registration document.

Documents required are:
V5C registration certificate
MOT (If applicable)

A tax disc will be issued over the counter.

An amended V5C will be returned within 4 weeks.

Please note, you will not be able to apply to tax the vehicle in advance you will need to wait until the 01/04/2014 to apply to change the taxation class."

Post Reply