Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

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muddy
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Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by muddy » 11th November 2017 - 7:30pm

Absolutely gutted.

After more than 12 months hard graft, today was going to be a momentous day, get engine started and possibly get it on the road for a test run.

Started engine, it started straight away, then we noticed oil pouring onto the floor.

I knew straight away what it was, the oil cooler.
During the resto, I had the engine out, change the various gaskets etc, gave it a good clean and paint. I knew though I was going to have problems with this when I was fitting it all back together.

I used some orange seals from an Elring engine gasket kit when I refitted the oil cooler.

We have stripped the engine in situ (Regardless what the Haynes Manual says, it's easily doable). We have removed the oil cooler and put the original seals back and re-fitted. And it still leaks badly!!!! Arrgghh. (Although I knew this would happen as the top of the engine was caked in oil when I stripped it down)

I've read various threads and also gone through my Bentley and Haynes manuals and I'm non the wiser. I'm confused whether I have a twin port, An early case, a late case, an early oil cooler or late oil cooler.

I've also checked the case and it doesn't look cracked, so hopefully just getting the correct seals will sort this problem.

I've taken some measurements:

The 2 oil cooler recess's in the case are 15.7mm but one hole is 9.8mm and the other 11.5. The holes are noticeably different sizes.

The actual oil cooler has both recess's as 15.8mm and both holes as 9.9mm.

I've attached pictures of the seals I have. What seal should I be fitting? I've already fitted the 2 orange far left pair which leaked. The black pair are the original removed ones, which also leaked.

I'm so dejected now I've had enough of this car already and I've not even drove it.

I notice VW heritage and Machine 7 sell individual seals, not sure if these are going to be the same as I already have, and I don't know if they are correct anyway.

For reference the car is a 1600cc 1971 fuel injection model.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

On a brighter side today, the engine started, I bled the brakes. It's pretty much ready to rock and roll. I'm updating the build thread tonight.

Image

Image
1973 VW Type 3 1600 TE Fastback. Under restoration

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937carrera
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by 937carrera » 11th November 2017 - 9:35pm

It''s 35 years since I rebuilt a type 4 engine, yet everything looks very familiar for the type 3.

The correct part number is I believe 111 198 029 or 021 117 161 A, depending on engine number, I seem to remember them being the salmon pink.

I don't think there's any great secret to mounting the seals. They should be placed into the recesses in the casing, with the oil cooler being placed on top. You need to ensure that the three securing bolts are tightened evenly, so as not to distort or twist the rubber seals and allow a leak.

From your picture I can see standard washers. I would expect that on the nut side of the cooler there would be a flat washer and a spring washer. Nothing on the bolt head side of the cooler. I don't think there is a correct torque figure - nip them evenly and then tighten to what feels right.

Given that you have done this in situ I would be tempted to reassemble without cooling tinware and make sure that you have solved the leak.

By the way, all the above is on the assumption that the leak is from the seals. Are you sure that is the problem, could the cooler itself be leaking ?
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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937carrera
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by 937carrera » 11th November 2017 - 9:45pm

Just noticed the measurements you have made. Given the seals are the same for feed / return, I would have thought the casting sizes would be the same. Is it possible someone has bored out the feed side in an attempt to give more flow ? In which case standard seals aren't going to work. Without an off the shelf alternative I would be looking to modify one of the seals by addition of rubber from another seal to take up the 1mm extra radius on the port, together with judicious use of a bonding / sealing material.


PS - this page may be of more help - make sure the seals are the right way round

http://www.oldvolkshome.com/oilcool.htm

and this shows that seals are available to go for different sized ports on the same connection

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-TYPE-3-ENGI ... 1178983324

No doubt some of the type 3 experts will be along shortly :)
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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sparkywig
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by sparkywig » 11th November 2017 - 10:30pm

Early engines have 8mm oil ports, which are thicker than the ones used on type 1 engines, so make sure you use the correct ones. These fit early coolers with the 8mm port.
Later engines have 10mm oil ports and use type 1 seals. Late and aftermarket oil coolers also have 10mm ports.
Both seals should be the same size, either 8mm or 10mm, so it looks like the larger port has been drilled for some reason.

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purplepeter
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by purplepeter » 11th November 2017 - 11:15pm

Those flat washers David refers to are correct- They're spacer washers.. Depending on year of car/combination of seals they may have been fitted under or on top of cooler
The way I decided which combination to use was by measuring height of seals as well as diameter & figuring out whether the spacer washer would allow the seals to compress properly
Your oil galleries look perfectly normal

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muddy
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by muddy » 11th November 2017 - 11:36pm

Thanks guys for the help so far. Not sure I'm any wiser tbh.

By the sounds of it the 11.5 hole in the case is the odd one out.

The engine before strip down was oiled up and I suspected it was from or near the oil cooler then.

Today's oil leak, although I'm not 100% is coming from this larger hole.

I think I'm just going to have to try different things to get it sealed.

At the moment I can run it by fitting oil cooler and intake manifold/injectors back, after a crank and very short start it leaks so I'll know. Only problem it leaks oil all over what was my lovely clean engine :angry:

Any more advice would be much appreciated. It's so close to being back on the road it's depressing.
1973 VW Type 3 1600 TE Fastback. Under restoration

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purplepeter
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by purplepeter » 11th November 2017 - 11:50pm

Other possible sources of leak are when the boss seperates from main body of cooler (Plastic padding works as a bodge)
or If You've lost the copper washers on the banjo bolt

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937carrera
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by 937carrera » 12th November 2017 - 10:14am

If I were in your shoes I would check the seal sizes against the oil gallery holes. Assuming one of them doesn't match, only you can decide if you want to wait until you have the correct ones or modify / bodge the ones you have as a test. I would also do as Peter suggests and by measuring the installed depth evaluate which side of the cooler the spacer washers should go. It is possible that they go on the crankcase side, and Peter certainly knows his stuff, but they aren't shown that way round on ETKA. In fact on ETKA the bolts are shown inserted from the top, not the bottom.

Unless you are sure that the leak is from the seals, I would also fill the cooler with brake cleaner as a test for leaks before I refitted it. Fill it, wipe it down and place on absorbent paper. Coloured is best, as even if the leak is so slow that the brake cleaner evaporates almost immediately, the dye will move. Diagnosis is often a process of elimination....
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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eagle
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by eagle » 12th November 2017 - 10:27am

I have spare seals somewhere here. I also have a spare type 3 and 4 oil cooler if you need more measurements.

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937carrera
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by 937carrera » 12th November 2017 - 11:26am

More experience over on samba, only 5 ft /lb, too tight and they distort & leak

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... ?p=5944213
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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muddy
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by muddy » 12th November 2017 - 8:40pm

Thanks guys for your help thus far.

I've stayed away from the car today, I didn't want it to ruin my whole weekend. I'll tackle it in the evenings this coming week. I'm in no rush, only int he fact that I'd like it all back together so a) I can get my garage back to normal and b) My wife gets her house and conservatory back. All parts are now out of the house and either on the car or waiting to be fitted.

Peter - What is the banjo bolt?

I've checked the oil cooler and it looks sound. I've swished it around and oil has come out of both oil ways. The leaked oil yesterday was definitely from the seals we watched it happen.

I suspect the problem is the larger hole in the crankcase, and probably the reason why it was ditched in oil when I stripped it down for a clean up.

The next thing is determining whether it needs the small spacers or not I guess, although for the year (1971) it should have them fitted. I'll measure them against the larger inner size of the seal. I guess the spacer needs to be smaller than this measurement to all the seal to compress.

I can't grasp though why the original black seals where hard and a lot thinner than the orange ones I have, plus the orange ones are still quite stiff. I would have thought they would be a little softer so that they can grip and seal in the recessed areas of the oil cooler and case.

I've ordered x2 021117151A seals from VW heritage as they are black and may be better rubber. I've also ordered some Loctite gasket/flange sealant for oil which I'll use to bodge it if the seals don't work.

I'll also try the 5 ft /lb as well.

The engine ran perfect before strip down so I'm assuming the oil pressure relief is ok and not stuck or anything.

Thanks again guys.
1973 VW Type 3 1600 TE Fastback. Under restoration

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purplepeter
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by purplepeter » 13th November 2017 - 10:23am

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/ma ... ectric.pdf

Go to page 26 of the pdf (illustration 57)

This shows the Banjo bolt & Manifold I referred to, if Your car has that arrangement.

Don't get too hung up worrying about different size galleries- its perfectly normal-

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miketyp3
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by miketyp3 » 13th November 2017 - 12:34pm

I realise the water of advice is already well clouded, but...
Its a late case and a late cooler so use the original fatter type seals withOUT spacers between the cooler and case.
It looks from the picture like they have been fitted.
Mike

64 1500S Notchback - RHD Sunroof
66 1600TL Fastback - Pigalle Interior
67 T346 Karmann Ghia - RHD Sunroof

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muddy
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by muddy » 13th November 2017 - 7:00pm

Thanks Peter, thanks Mike.

I'll give it a go tonight or tomorrow. I'll re-use the orange seals (10mm both sides) (far left on picture) without spacers and see how that goes.

I'll keep you updated.
1973 VW Type 3 1600 TE Fastback. Under restoration

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muddy
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by muddy » 13th November 2017 - 7:04pm

Peter,

That's a cracking parts catalogue. Thanks.
No I don't have that arrangement, oil pressure switch screws directly into oil cooler.
1973 VW Type 3 1600 TE Fastback. Under restoration

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muddy
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by muddy » 13th November 2017 - 9:51pm

Right, not wanting to temp fate or anything but I think I've sorted the leak.

Gone back to it tonight having had a break from it yesterday.

Cleaned everything up, sat orange seals (10mm-10mm) into the case and carefully placed the oil cooler on top without the spacers in place. After quite a few re-checks to see that the seals were still seated ok, I've gradually tightened up the 3 nuts evenly and torqued them (New 1/4 torque wrench I got today from Amazon) to 5 ft lbs.

As everything is still in bits I've only cranked it several times, managed to start it for a brief few seconds but no leaks (Timing is out, and had to move disi to get tinware out). I was on my own so had to turn the disi until I could get a few revs from it. Achieved oil pressure pretty good and fast.

Before, on the other attempts it would leak on crank over, so I'm (fingers crossed) happy that it's hopefully sorted.

Hopefully I won't be back on this thread again.

I've now got the enviable task of getting the tin ware back together with the engine in situ.

Thanks for all the help guys.
1973 VW Type 3 1600 TE Fastback. Under restoration

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937carrera
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by 937carrera » 13th November 2017 - 9:59pm

Good to hear :), even better when everything is finally back in place.

I was wondering how you would do 5 ft lbs, I wouldn't have thought that was much more than hand tight. I would be thinking about adding a dab of loctite, just to make sure they don't loosen unintentionally, cue rapid oil loss and the potential for a great many tears.
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon


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muddy
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by muddy » 14th November 2017 - 6:39pm

937carrera - surprisingly 5ft lbs felt quite tight using a 1/4 drive, although I did only use my fingers from stopping the bolt head spinning whilst tightening. :D

I don't really want to remove it now. Maybe I should have thought of Loctite earlier. Time will tell. At least now I know that I should get a good seal with what I have. Looks like the spacers played a big part in it not sealing fully.

Fitting the tinware back tonight, I hope it all aligns ok.
1973 VW Type 3 1600 TE Fastback. Under restoration

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broady_6
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by broady_6 » 15th November 2017 - 10:46pm

I love a happy ending, though that's a different story!. Glad your sorted and some useful notes generated for the rest of us
The sultan of swing

kaddy
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Re: Help!! Oil cooler is leaking

Post by kaddy » 16th November 2017 - 12:36am

Good stuff.

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