Going electric ??

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 12th March 2019 - 8:16pm

I know you did tell me early on to change the oil and filter. It's going to be done, thinking on I have no idea of the grade of oil in the motor at present or how long it's been in there. It should give me more information either way.
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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 14th March 2019 - 4:52pm

Changed the oil and filter, 20/50 classic. It's not made any difference to the clacking!! Adjusted the throttle valve at the same time, idling speed is back where it should be. A bit more investigating will be done tomorrow ie check the tin ware and exhaust etc. Will keep you posted.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 14th March 2019 - 5:02pm

More importantly, what was the condition of the old oil and the oil strainer ?

Any metallic particles, silvery or bronze shimmer on top of the oil ?

Good that you have the idle sorted.
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 14th March 2019 - 7:40pm

The oil was fine, good viscosity no unusual smell no shavings no sheen I would give it a clean bill of health, infact would say it was relatively fresh as was the filter....?????
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 14th March 2019 - 8:33pm

Sounds OK, I take it you didn't take a look at the strainer then

Time for another video ??
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 14th March 2019 - 9:27pm

Will do some tin tapping tomorrow then do another video and hopefully have it on site by the weekend. Will do a walk round of the car at the same time. You can all see what a gem it is in pink!!!!
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 15th March 2019 - 7:04pm

Well that was a bit premature, I now know why the engine was racing!! Fuel injector sticking. I revisited the oil I dropped yesterday and there is a smell of petrol, how I missed that first time round I don't know. That changes a lot, could explain the clacking. Can you get injectors for these and if yes where from?
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 15th March 2019 - 8:01pm

Hmmm, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Sticking injector - excess fuel will not cause a faster idle unless there is air to match. The excess fuel will have washed the bores and in extreme circumstances can cause overheating / bearing problems, but I doubt that has affected your motor.

I don't know about sources for injectors. I suspect s/h is best source or have yours ultrasonically cleaned

Petrol in oil is unlikely to make any difference to engine noise - IMHO
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by broady_6 » 15th March 2019 - 8:47pm

Well sorry for the silence, ive been doing a bit of driving on the continent. Not conducive to typing on the phone. The over fueling could have been causing the noise, in that overfueling could be causing hydraulicing. But I might be getting a bit far fetched there, anyway. I will hopefully have something productive to add when ive slept and sobered
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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 15th March 2019 - 9:51pm

broady_6 wrote:
15th March 2019 - 8:47pm
anyway. I will hopefully have something productive to add when ive slept and sobered
based on that diagnosis I suspect both alcohol and waccy baccy are involved in that coffee shop :D
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 15th March 2019 - 10:54pm

This is a bit worrying for me, how does petrol get into the engine oil? More importantly what's the cure? What sort of company would do ultrasonic cleaning?..... Also what's s/h ? There's lots of questions there sorry. In defence of not smelling petrol in the oil yesterday it was blowing a gale! I stored the waste oil in a plastic container for disposal when I unscrewed the cap this morning the petrol smell was overpowering.
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broady_6
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by broady_6 » 16th March 2019 - 7:45am

If its over fueling the petrol will weep past the piston rings, down the bored and into the block, the cure would be hone the bores, new rings and stop the over fueling. Forgive me gere, but an ultrasonic cleaning company would do ultra sonic cleaning :D :D Have a look at local engine engineering firms, it wont cost very much, somewhere around £30 if i recall.

S/H is secondhand

No special tobacco involved, just a lack of sleep and quite a bit of french vin which was freshly sourced on Thursday.
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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 16th March 2019 - 8:48am

I did a quick google for you:

Try Darwen diesels https://www.darwendiesels.com/ - if they can't do them I suspect they will know someone who will, or https://www.fuelinjectorclinic.co.uk/, a bit further away in Cheshire.

There's a guy with a rolling road near me that has all the equipment, but he would never turn up in a google search, there may be someone like him near you, contact local Bosch specialists. The older the firm and the guy on the front desk the better chance you have :) .

I wouldn't worry too much about the petrol in the oil, provided the oil still feels as though it gives lubrication. I had a turbo engine once which was overfuelling (deliberately, to use fuel to cool the bores on the overrun and to stop it going lean). That needed regular oil changes to avoid the oil deteriorating too badly with catastrophic consequences. The issue was solved by changing the engine management system to allow more granular engine mapping.
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 16th March 2019 - 9:54am

In case others need to know, remanufactured injectors are available for $80 each from

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Fuel-Inje ... 50-007.htm
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 16th March 2019 - 5:44pm

Thank you again for the useful addresses. Does the plug on the distributor have anything to do with the fueling? The oil capacity in the VW is not a lot, it won't take much to creep past the max line, you could then be in the realm of seal trouble I'm thinking?? Looking at the exploded diagram Haynes manual page 67 (fuel injectors) I'm guessing you can remove the injectors without taking off the air intake manifold ? Can you check the injector function with it plugged in but holding the injector in your fingers and a second person turning the ignition? Posing being if I have them cleaned I may still have a very clean but kaput injector.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 16th March 2019 - 6:33pm

The plug on the distributor is for the injection system - it's connected to a special set of trigger points that tells the ECU where the crank is - see page 62. No longer available so only clean them if necessary and never abrade them.

I don't know what seal trouble you are concerned about. If a seal is damaged you get a leak, not a loud metallic noise.

You can remove the injectors without taking off the inlet manifold. You might be able to test them in situ, or you may need to extend the fuel pipes to allow an in situ test. I've never done it. General approach would be to check the spray pattern and also do a delivery test for each injector into 4 receptacles.

D-Jet is simple,but more difficult to work on than the later K-Jet. I suggest you download a manual from http://pcbunn.cithep.caltech.edu/jjb/Po ... tronic.pdf to get a better understanding (Bosch has more detail than Haynes). I took it at face value when you said an injector was stuck open but now I am wondering how you came to that conclusion. Don't forget there is a 5th cold start injector.

When sending parts away, it's important that you describe what work you want doing..... so not clean the injector, but clean and test the injector for spray pattern and delivery. I expect every place will do that, but it does remove the concern you have.
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 16th March 2019 - 9:42pm

Cheers for that ,all good information. When I sort out someone to clean the injectors a I will have them tested also, that will save me messing about. I wouldn't know what to look for anyway. Regarding the seals I know their nothing to do with the knocking but your introducing more on the jobs to do list.the weathers been so bad here not been able to do anything and it's snowing tomorrow.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 16th March 2019 - 10:23pm

I didn't think I was adding more onto the list for you and am concerned lots of things are "being looked at" without proper diagnosis. That tends to be both frustrating and unnecessarily expensive. Going back over earlier posts you said the oil level was full and stable so there doesn't seem to be much to worry about.

When the weather clears put another video up
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 17th March 2019 - 1:08pm

Yes will do. I'm thinking because of my lack of knowledge I'm in no way going about this the correct way, I'm jumping from one conclusion to another and confusing everyone else. Not achieving anything and more than likely making things worse. Could we have an opinion on that?
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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 17th March 2019 - 1:31pm

Rob 400e wrote:
17th March 2019 - 1:08pm
Yes will do. I'm thinking because of my lack of knowledge I'm in no way going about this the correct way, I'm jumping from one conclusion to another and confusing everyone else. Not achieving anything and more than likely making things worse. Could we have an opinion on that?
yeah, that's kind of what I was worried about. - you're not making things worse though, getting the tappets right and a good oil change are both good things. We'll try and give you good remote guidance.

There's nothing more difficult than solving a problem that doesn't exist :)

...... and we've all jumped to the wrong, more complicated and expensive solution before
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 17th March 2019 - 4:57pm

Type 411 Le four door auto .

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 17th March 2019 - 5:04pm

Type 411 Le four door auto .

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 17th March 2019 - 5:27pm

Having trouble with cutting and pasting, got my head round it now. The vids were done with the engine warm I did a vid from cold starting but it was to long and I was unable to upload, so had to do two shorter ones, hope this gives anyone listening a better idea.
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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 17th March 2019 - 5:28pm

Well, that's certainly better than it was.

It's all a bit inconclusive though, I didn't hear any huge difference in tone as you moved the camera around the engine compartment,but at around 1:40 when you move to cylinder 3/4 the knock does seem to increase.

The rhythm does still sound as though it is camshaft speed related, but it's quite difficult to tell

Any chance you can do another one, maybe from a bit further back so we can get a better sense of the noise from outside the car, and then from underneath from the left and the right so we can hear each head. Just leave it on idle, I wince every time you rev it up :tear:

At this point I would be tempted to recheck the tappets again

Let's see if broady is of the same opinion, I do hope he's not enjoying the vin too much this evening :)
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 17th March 2019 - 5:37pm

I just listened to the second video (knock 3)

This time I thought it got a bit louder as the camera went under the centre of the crankcase and the valve noise at 3/4 was minimal

A more distant video would still be helpful I think
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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