engine

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bfr123
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engine

Post by bfr123 » 9th February 2016 - 8:17am

Hi Guys,
Is the 1700 411 engine the same as the 1700 412? I ask because I want to replace my clutch and I have been told the 411 will not fit the 412 but they are both 1700 so I am a little confused (that doesn't take much nowadays) as they are both 1700 cc. Is it that the gearboxes are different and the splines have more or less teeth? Or am I on the right track and there is no difference at all. :?
Brian

1972 412 LE 2 Door Sedan (taxed tested used)
1979 VW Micro Bus (taxed tested used)
1975 VW Micro bus Auto (deluxe model with steel sliding sun roof) Just building it back up.

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Editor
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Re: engine

Post by Editor » 9th February 2016 - 12:51pm

It's more likely a matter of the clutch assembly and the clutch plate size, but others may know better.
Parts book says:-
Engine W 0 000 001 to W 0 129 581
Clutch cover and pressure plate 022 141 025A; Clutch plate 215mm 022 141 031D (to July '71)

Engine W 0 129 582 on, and all EA
Clutch cover and pressure plate 022 141 025C; Clutch plate 210mm 022 141 031E (from Aug 71)

That's all the info I can supply (unless your engine is code V or Z).

Jane and Bryan at the farm may be able to help further.
Dave.

bfr123
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Re: engine

Post by bfr123 » 9th February 2016 - 1:02pm

as always Dave, on the ball, thanks very much, i keep forgetting about Jane and Bryan i'll give them a bell.
Brian

1972 412 LE 2 Door Sedan (taxed tested used)
1979 VW Micro Bus (taxed tested used)
1975 VW Micro bus Auto (deluxe model with steel sliding sun roof) Just building it back up.

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Editor
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Re: engine

Post by Editor » 11th February 2016 - 12:16am

It's not knowledge, I just bought the manuals when they came up at VW shows!
Dave.

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richtbiscuits
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Re: engine

Post by richtbiscuits » 19th February 2016 - 1:14am

Hi, interesting thread this. I need to fit a new clutch to my '72 1700 412 engine and I'm struggling to work out which size I need. The clutch plate I removed is 215 mm. The Haynes manual (for what its worth) states 215 mm after August '69 (although it makes no mention of any later changes) but the engine number info on this thread from Dave suggests I need a 210 mm clutch plate. vwheritage sells a 210 mm clutch kit which it says fits 1700-1800 type 4 engines (for use on T2 72-74). Sounds like this is going to be the one I need? Could it be that my engine had the wrong size clutch fitted previously and, if so, what effect would that have on the engine and drivability? All advice very welcome.
'72 412 LE Variant
'73 412 LE Variant
'83 1200 Beetle

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Re: engine

Post by Editor » 20th February 2016 - 12:04am

The earliest ones had 200mm clutches, with double springs, but then they changed to 215, and later to 210. I know there's been confusion for years on which size of clutch is used for which Type 4, and one size was very hard to find. I would have thought one that works OK in a Type 2 with 1700/1800 will work fine in the Type 4. I doubt if there will be any difference in driveability. You usually notice smoother clutch operation after changing, due to release sleeve being cleaned and greased, and a lighter operating force as the diaphragm springs work harden with use and get stiffer. Have you tried phoning Jane and Bryan about it?
Dave.

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937carrera
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Re: engine

Post by 937carrera » 20th February 2016 - 5:24pm

richtbiscuits wrote:Hi, interesting thread this. I need to fit a new clutch to my '72 1700 412 engine and I'm struggling to work out which size I need.
Without wanting to sound like a parts factor rep, if you provide your engine number we can see what size you need. The part numbers also vary by year for the same diameter.
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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richtbiscuits
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Re: engine

Post by richtbiscuits » 20th February 2016 - 11:54pm

Thanks for the replies. David, my engine number is W0172835. If you could find which part I need and perhaps where one could be sourced I'd be very grateful. Thanks again for all your help.
'72 412 LE Variant
'73 412 LE Variant
'83 1200 Beetle

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937carrera
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Re: engine

Post by 937carrera » 21st February 2016 - 12:04am

So that means you should have a 210mm clutch, friction plate is 022 141 031 GX and diaphragm / cover plate 022 141 025 HX.

I think the T2 approach should work - I checked against a '78 and '73 T2 and the cover plate part number was the same, the friction plate shows as no longer available. Check the input shaft diameter and number of splines
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Re: engine

Post by Editor » 21st February 2016 - 1:36pm

Have you phoned Bryan and Jane yet? They've done a lot of work on Type 4s and know all the ins and outs, and availability and work-arounds for NLA stuff. They may even have what you need in stock. They don't bite, either!
Dave.

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richtbiscuits
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Re: engine

Post by richtbiscuits » 22nd February 2016 - 11:17pm

Thank you for your replies. I'll check the input shaft diameter and number of splines and I'll give Bryan and Jane a call too. Would you have their number to hand please?
'72 412 LE Variant
'73 412 LE Variant
'83 1200 Beetle

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Re: engine

Post by Editor » 23rd February 2016 - 12:29am

Bryan and Jane are on 01303840374 for their office.
Dave.

bfr123
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Re: engine

Post by bfr123 » 27th February 2016 - 9:09am

just an update on the clutch issue. spoke to Jane yesterday and had an interesting conversation about this. These are apparently as rare as hens teeth and depending on the year and engine number all differ very slightly.

I was led to believe the T2 would fit but Jane says not as they are different in the amount of splines and the diameter. She said that in the past they have fitted a 215mm but you also have to change the flywheel as well.

Jane also told me that the 411 is different as well and would not fit, (this lady certainly knows her classics) I asked if a 200mm friction plate would be ok to fit with the 210mm pressure plate but she not really as there is too much difference in diameter.

As my friction plate is contaminated with what looks like old oil and dirt build up from the bell housing, she advised me to put it in an old saucepan with washing powder and give it a boil. (she has done this in the past and it cleaned it of all oil) so, boil it I will.

Please continue this thread if anyone has found an alternative clutch that fits and works well.
Brian

1972 412 LE 2 Door Sedan (taxed tested used)
1979 VW Micro Bus (taxed tested used)
1975 VW Micro bus Auto (deluxe model with steel sliding sun roof) Just building it back up.

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Editor
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Re: engine

Post by Editor » 27th February 2016 - 11:28am

Yes, you've found the UK experts in Type 4s, and such a genuinely helpful and enthusiastic pair are as rare as the cars!

You took out a 215mm, so presumably the flywheel is already right for that?
Sounds like the boiling trick should work. Maybe follow up with a thorough rinse in plain water to remove the detergent?

Another handy tip - I remember being astonished when told that brake fluid contaminated linings could simply be rinsed thoroughly in water, but that wouldn't apply to oil-soaked friction linings.
Dave.

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937carrera
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Re: engine

Post by 937carrera » 28th February 2016 - 8:28am

The other alternative to cleaning, especially if there is little material left, is to simply get the friction plate relined, Last time I had this done I think it was only about £20.
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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purplepeter
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Re: engine

Post by purplepeter » 10th March 2016 - 10:29pm

Just seen this on Ebay- Might be of use to someone http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-K70-411-Va ... Swv9hW3H9F

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