Auto box failure

Come here to ask for technical help and advice
Post Reply
User avatar
Stuart Sepple
Posts: 117
Joined: 18th October 2004 - 5:50pm
Location: Sarf London

Auto box failure

Post by Stuart Sepple » 12th June 2017 - 5:06pm

Need some advice re: my 1973 Type 3 Automatic Squareback.
Took it for its MOT last week, it passed with flying colours, but when I collected Garage informed me the reverse gear had stopped working. They claimed it was nothing they has done just a "coincidence".
The box has been trouble free for years and was fine when I drove it to them (I reversed out in the morning and the last time I drove it was to reverse into the garages Parking space.)
Now when put into reverse absolutely nothing happens. Also when driving it home there appeared to be no power around where it should change into third.
Two questions.
Is such a sudden failure possible/likely?
What's the possibility of finding someone to diagnose and repair it :(

Thanks
Stuart

User avatar
jmarkha1
Posts: 563
Joined: 25th July 2006 - 9:02pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Auto box failure

Post by jmarkha1 » 13th June 2017 - 8:41pm

Stuart - first thing to check is whether there are signs of any leakage from the gearbox end - as opposed to the differential end.
Check that the vacuum is connected to the engine.
They are quite sensitive to oil level - read up online on how to check oil level with car running - half a litre of ATF may fix her up - good luck
The variant Project

User avatar
mjrpoulton
Posts: 126
Joined: 29th October 2004 - 5:40pm
Location: Chester, Cheshire

Re: Auto box failure

Post by mjrpoulton » 14th June 2017 - 12:49am

Stuart

Unfortunately such a sudden failure of an auto box is possible. I understand its usually a consequence of the plates partly drying out after a period of non use and fragments coming off that can block the valve body affecting pressures.

However, before you conclude that a visit to an auto trans specialist is needed, it's worth checking the levels according to the procedure in the handbook, check that the selector cable is not loose where it is connected to the box and is adjusted correctly. You could drain the ATF and refill and check that the vacuum modulator valve is not allowing fluid to pass into the engine. Its also possible for the internal seal that keeps the ATF separate from the final drive oil to fail allowing cross contamination, which is a dismantle the box job.

For a specialist the box is not over complex to overhaul, the biggest challenge will be sourcing the 003 overhaul kit without needing to get a set sent over from the USA.
Mark
1975 412LS Variant (built 9/73)
1972 411LE 2 door
1968 type 345 auto
1967 type 344
1972 type 145KG (type3 engine)

User avatar
Stuart Sepple
Posts: 117
Joined: 18th October 2004 - 5:50pm
Location: Sarf London

Re: Auto box failure

Post by Stuart Sepple » 22nd June 2017 - 3:08pm

Hi thanks for your suggestions.
Looking like it could be the Reverse and Direct Clutch (or related part) has failed :crybaby: :(
As it involves dismantling the box just need to track down a trustworthy Auto Box re builder and find parts! (And money!)

Hi Mark Poulton - good to see you are still on the scene. Do you still own the Type 3 Ghia you had in the eighties?
We used to have a 67 type 1 Ghia

Stuart

User avatar
mjrpoulton
Posts: 126
Joined: 29th October 2004 - 5:40pm
Location: Chester, Cheshire

Re: Auto box failure

Post by mjrpoulton » 29th June 2017 - 9:16pm

Stuart

Yes I do and the fleet has expanded a bit as you can see!

My experiences with the auto box included a rebuilt unit from the US which had a blocked valve body, meaning a lack of lubrication when started which damaged the clutch plates internally needing a full rebuild.

You may need an 003 rebuild kit from the US unless your auto box company have a supplier. For specialists they are quite simple, getting any parts beyond an overhaul kit could be challenging though.

Best of luck
Mark
1975 412LS Variant (built 9/73)
1972 411LE 2 door
1968 type 345 auto
1967 type 344
1972 type 145KG (type3 engine)

User avatar
JSR-69
Posts: 264
Joined: 1st May 2006 - 12:31pm
Location: Sutton-on-Sea, Lincolnshire
Contact:

Re: Auto box failure

Post by JSR-69 » 4th July 2017 - 3:39pm

mjrpoulton wrote:
14th June 2017 - 12:49am
... I understand its usually a consequence of the plates partly drying out after a period of non use and fragments coming off that can block the valve body affecting pressures.
How long a period of non use is involved here? I haven't moved my 412 auto for a couple of months or so and I had noticed that after standing for more than a week it took a few minutes before the box would be able to find 2nd gear. Are there any precautions I should take before starting or moving off to lessen the risk of damage?

Judi R
Judi R
1963 Beetle (awaiting restoration)
1972 Karmann Ghia (sold)
1972 412 Variant Auto
1974 412 5-door Variant project

User avatar
mjrpoulton
Posts: 126
Joined: 29th October 2004 - 5:40pm
Location: Chester, Cheshire

Re: Auto box failure

Post by mjrpoulton » 4th July 2017 - 10:51pm

I don't think there is any magic number - a lot depends on age and wear within the box also. I was advised to let the box oil warm up and circulate if its been standing a while before putting it under load.
Mark
1975 412LS Variant (built 9/73)
1972 411LE 2 door
1968 type 345 auto
1967 type 344
1972 type 145KG (type3 engine)

User avatar
Stuart Sepple
Posts: 117
Joined: 18th October 2004 - 5:50pm
Location: Sarf London

Re: Auto box failure

Post by Stuart Sepple » 11th August 2017 - 5:15pm

Hi Mark (and anyone else interested).
As a follow up to my Auto box failure post. The car went to a company called Dartford Transmissions (recommended to me by a couple of sources).
When they took the box apart they found the Direct/Reverse wrecked. They replaced this and also the other clutch and the vacuum pump (which they suspected was leaking). They tracked down parts and rebuild kit in 3 days. Cost inc labour 850 quid and it drives now like new. Will see how well it lasts over time and keep you informed as may be useful for others with auto box cars.
Stuart

User avatar
jmarkha1
Posts: 563
Joined: 25th July 2006 - 9:02pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Auto box failure

Post by jmarkha1 » 11th August 2017 - 5:59pm

nice one Stuart - nice to not have to worry about that again for a long time - bet it drives so nice now - auto type 3s are as good as it gets for relaxed driving...
The variant Project

s.unsworth
Posts: 434
Joined: 10th November 2006 - 6:17pm
Location: Up North ( It`s Grim)

Re: Auto box failure

Post by s.unsworth » 13th August 2017 - 6:10pm

Not sure if the Clutch Linings drying out with standing bit is just a myth, or has someone had that happen to their Auto Transmission ? My Type 3 Automatic Variant stood in a Body Shop for a whole 18 years without moving. I had planned to keep going back and putting a Battery on it for the very reason of starting the Engine and selecting it through all the Gears to circulate the Fluid. That never happened. When the car finally had the " Body Off " Rebuild after standing for 18 years there was no problem whatsoever with the Auto Transmission. It is still fine today several years after getting back on the road, and it mainly just sits in my Garage. The Auto Transmission was however rebuilt back in 1993, when it was my Daily Driver. Lost all drive leaving the Car Park at work one day. It was rebuilt then by automaticgearboxrepairs.com who are still at Emmanuel Street in Preston. They said the loss of all drive was just down to all the Seals being worn out. They replaced all Clutches and Brake Bands, all the Seals in the Valve Body and the rest of the Box. That's been it since 1993 when it remained my Daily Driver for a bit longer then stood in a Mate of a Mates Body Shop for 18 years waiting for the " Body Off ". Starts and Drives fine any time I decide to take it out, mainly only to the MOT Centre and LHCC meets. That's our local Historic Car Club here in the Lake District.

Post Reply