Starter motor
- packers1712
- Posts: 196
- Joined: 7th October 2010 - 8:58am
- Location: Bedfordshire (nr Luton)
Starter motor
Hi, my '71 type 3 FI has developed a non starting issue when its hot, in that the starter does nothing until its given a "light tap" after which it will work again, is there anything in particular I need to be paying attention to before i go down the route of replacing the starter? Somebody mentioned to me that the spigot bearing that the starter pinion rests in is sometimes an issue - would this cause my symptom?
Thanks in advance, Doug.
Thanks in advance, Doug.
Re: Starter motor
Yes it certainly could. You can change it insitu with a tap. I think is M12 but i cant remember off the top of my head and cant check till later in the week.
its worth a shot as its a couple of quid vs £70 or so.
Need any pointers just ask and ill be happy to help
its worth a shot as its a couple of quid vs £70 or so.
Need any pointers just ask and ill be happy to help
The sultan of swing
Re: Starter motor
Hi Doug,
This is a well-known 'feature' with a number of solutions. I used to find re-starting immediately after shutting down following a run would then allow a normal start when next used worked for a while. It seems the brushes can 'hang up' somehow, and not make proper contact with the armature, maybe expansion with the heat soak of a motorway journey.
There may be a solenoid factor playing a part, or it could be the bush in the bell-housing, or simply a need for the pinion shaft to be cleaned and lightly lubricated. There's details on how to dismantle the starter and clean things at http://home.clara.net/hallvw/starter.htm . You may get away for a while just by cleaning the pinion shaft - depends on how many times you want to try to sort it out!
I eventually fitted a starter relay in the solenoid wire that runs under the mat/carpet past the battery. There's a connector under the seat which is a handy place to get into the loom, and you're next to the battery for the power feed. Using the relay also saves wear on the starter terminals in the ignition/starter switch, which is a bonus for '71 as it's a hard switch to find if it fails. It must be 15 years since I fitted that relay, and the original starter on my '71 still works after 45 years and almost 100,000 miles (touch wood!). I don't much like replacing things with modern inferior stuff!
This is a well-known 'feature' with a number of solutions. I used to find re-starting immediately after shutting down following a run would then allow a normal start when next used worked for a while. It seems the brushes can 'hang up' somehow, and not make proper contact with the armature, maybe expansion with the heat soak of a motorway journey.
There may be a solenoid factor playing a part, or it could be the bush in the bell-housing, or simply a need for the pinion shaft to be cleaned and lightly lubricated. There's details on how to dismantle the starter and clean things at http://home.clara.net/hallvw/starter.htm . You may get away for a while just by cleaning the pinion shaft - depends on how many times you want to try to sort it out!
I eventually fitted a starter relay in the solenoid wire that runs under the mat/carpet past the battery. There's a connector under the seat which is a handy place to get into the loom, and you're next to the battery for the power feed. Using the relay also saves wear on the starter terminals in the ignition/starter switch, which is a bonus for '71 as it's a hard switch to find if it fails. It must be 15 years since I fitted that relay, and the original starter on my '71 still works after 45 years and almost 100,000 miles (touch wood!). I don't much like replacing things with modern inferior stuff!
Dave.
- packers1712
- Posts: 196
- Joined: 7th October 2010 - 8:58am
- Location: Bedfordshire (nr Luton)
Re: Starter motor
Thanks guys I'll start there then and let you both know how i get on!
- packers1712
- Posts: 196
- Joined: 7th October 2010 - 8:58am
- Location: Bedfordshire (nr Luton)
Re: Starter motor
Quick update on the starter fault, the bush in the bell housing looks good so i tested the starter on the bench and it is very lazy so I'm thinking that maybe its had its day, it does look like the original one, so the next question is where would buy a new one from ?
The ones from Heritage don't have great reviews!
Thanks again Doug.
The ones from Heritage don't have great reviews!
Thanks again Doug.
- 937carrera
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: 7th June 2013 - 11:54pm
- Location: North Yorkshire
Re: Starter motor
I had a similar issue on my T25 recently.
Can you dismantle the motor to remove the carbon brushes and get to the armature. If you look closely you will probably find carbon build up between the segments on the armature. Clean these out carefully (without causing damage), reassemble and I think you'll find that the starter is back to health - unless the brushes are worn out, in which case replace those.
Can you dismantle the motor to remove the carbon brushes and get to the armature. If you look closely you will probably find carbon build up between the segments on the armature. Clean these out carefully (without causing damage), reassemble and I think you'll find that the starter is back to health - unless the brushes are worn out, in which case replace those.
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon
Re: Starter motor
You only get the full current when the solenoid contacts close. This happens when the pinion engages with the flywheel starter ring. It's a pre-engaged starter, and initially the current inches it round and moves the pinion outwards. The other thing to note is that with the shaft not in the bush, it's not supported properly.
There's lots of things that can make things sluggish, and you wouldn't be the first to replace a starter motor then find the earthing braid in a poor state.
I read that starter segments aren't undercut - that's only done on dynamos, so give the armature a decent clean. I don't recollect if the brushes are carbon or copper on the starter, but either way you don't want the brush dust on there. It was for a 6V Ford 'Pop' engine in an old aircraft tug, but the same arguments hold good for VWs. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122717
There's lots of things that can make things sluggish, and you wouldn't be the first to replace a starter motor then find the earthing braid in a poor state.
I read that starter segments aren't undercut - that's only done on dynamos, so give the armature a decent clean. I don't recollect if the brushes are carbon or copper on the starter, but either way you don't want the brush dust on there. It was for a 6V Ford 'Pop' engine in an old aircraft tug, but the same arguments hold good for VWs. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122717
Dave.
- packers1712
- Posts: 196
- Joined: 7th October 2010 - 8:58am
- Location: Bedfordshire (nr Luton)
Re: Starter motor
Thanks guys, I was already half way through a strip, clean and reassemble when your message came through 937Carrera and it was filthy. I refitted it last night and it works fine the proof in the pudding will be when I try to do a hot restart- fingers crossed.
Thanks again everyone for your help, Doug.
Thanks again everyone for your help, Doug.
Re: Starter motor
Well you're over the worst anyway. Mine went quite a while after a clean before it began playing up again, which was when I fitted the relay, since when the problem hasn't repeated.
Dave.