Rolling Road

Come here to ask for technical help and advice
Post Reply
User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 16th January 2018 - 8:37pm

Hey Guys n Girls

Soooo my 72 Fasty. I have rebuilt the engine. It now has twin Weber Ict’s, Pertronix dizzy and coil. “How does it run” I hear you ask. Not great (sad face). I have been messing about with timing, jets etc. Aaaaaargh. Still not great. It now idles well, full throttle not bad, but middle ground not too good, doesn’t pull, hesitates, grim. I have spent 5 years bringing this car back to life, I have yet to enjoy it. I have contacted the various parts suppliers and they are saying to get it onto a rolling road.
So does anyone know of an aircooled, Weber friendly rolling road in the Wiltshire area?
As always your help and advice are appreciated.
Cheers people.
John

User avatar
purplepeter
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8th August 2006 - 4:41pm
Location: Bath, Avon

Re: Rolling Road

Post by purplepeter » 17th January 2018 - 2:00pm

Theres a place in Bristol I think- Maybe Avonmouth.
My suggestion would be to refit the stock ignition system & go from there
I'd also encourage You to make the L shaped plate to assist in timing the bugger

User avatar
broady_6
Posts: 2904
Joined: 13th January 2009 - 8:55pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by broady_6 » 17th January 2018 - 2:46pm

Now then, what jets are you running?
Main
Idle
Air correction
Emulsion tubes?

Why did you put webers 34s on? they arent really a very good carb for these engines to be honest.
The sultan of swing

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 17th January 2018 - 3:41pm

Thanks Pete

Have already made the L shape plate.
May go back to standard dizzy if all else fails.

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 17th January 2018 - 3:48pm

I’ve been having fun and games with the jets. The best I’ve got now is 135 mains and 55 idle. I don’t know what air correction or emulsion tubes. I bought the kit from Eurocarb so was hoping it would work out of the box. Nope. I now have got some 140’s and 145’s mains coming, am at the end of my tether with it to be honest.

John

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 17th January 2018 - 4:05pm

I believe it has 160 air correction jets

User avatar
sparkywig
Posts: 660
Joined: 28th August 2013 - 12:49pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by sparkywig » 17th January 2018 - 5:31pm

Eurocarb jetting is way out as all engines are different.
I use John at JPR Tuning, Yate nr Bristol.

http://www.jprtuning.co.uk/

His number is 07539 457544/07539 457545

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 17th January 2018 - 6:01pm

Cheers Sparky
He’s got good reviews.
Might give him a try if no luck with the new jets coming.

John

User avatar
broady_6
Posts: 2904
Joined: 13th January 2009 - 8:55pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by broady_6 » 17th January 2018 - 6:12pm

Now these cards do not work out of the box. They never will. They originally fitted a bedford CF van. Someone many years ago took one of the CF van carbs and got Chinese company to copy it. Unfortunately they copied exactly with the same jets and tubes in. That is what gets supplied today to VW owners and it is a bag of....... The first thing to do with any weber 34 is take all the jets out and throw them in the bin.

These will give you a pretty good start and you will stand a chance of it running and driving before you waste time on a rolling road

F6 emulsion tube very important. no point buggering with the other jets unless you know this is halfway right
140 main jet
170 air correction
then have a play with any of 55 60 or 65 idle jet

Try it and let me know how you get on ;)
The sultan of swing

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 17th January 2018 - 6:54pm

Cheers Broady.

Will do.

John

User avatar
broady_6
Posts: 2904
Joined: 13th January 2009 - 8:55pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by broady_6 » 17th January 2018 - 7:55pm

No bother, still hacks me off the major players are still selling like that, its been years now!
The sultan of swing

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 17th January 2018 - 8:07pm

Yeah I know.
Bought from Eurocarb because they talked the talk. Can’t supply the right product though. However I’ve gotta say that even though the knowledge may be lacking, the 2 guys there have been really helpful in sending out different jets. Shame that they weren’t the right ones.
John

User avatar
broady_6
Posts: 2904
Joined: 13th January 2009 - 8:55pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by broady_6 » 17th January 2018 - 8:57pm

Im also assuming your running a stockish 1600?
The sultan of swing

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 17th January 2018 - 10:15pm

Stock 1600Tp except Pertronix svda dizzy, flamethrower coil, single quiet pack exhaust.

John

User avatar
sparkywig
Posts: 660
Joined: 28th August 2013 - 12:49pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by sparkywig » 17th January 2018 - 11:25pm

The 34 ICT was developed for single use on a Bedford CF van over here in the UK as an ICH with choke.
All the carbs currently supplied are jetted for this, not for a VW.
The jets as supplied are;
idle jet 52
main jet 130
air corrector jet 160
emulsion tube F78
needle valve 175

When I fitted them to my otherwise stock 1600 singleport in my bus I ended up with;
idle jet 55
main jet 150
air corrector jet 170
emulsion tubes F3/F6
needle valve 125-140

F3/F6 emulsion tubes have no drilling high up on the tube allowing the idle jet to do its job without adding early fuel from the main jet.

User avatar
sparkywig
Posts: 660
Joined: 28th August 2013 - 12:49pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by sparkywig » 17th January 2018 - 11:26pm

Punnet on the JK Forum did a ICT setup years ago. I've got a copy if you would like it.

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 18th January 2018 - 7:19am

Hi Sparky
If you’ve got a link to that, that would be great, cheers.

John

User avatar
broady_6
Posts: 2904
Joined: 13th January 2009 - 8:55pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by broady_6 » 18th January 2018 - 7:51am

broady_6 wrote:
17th January 2018 - 6:12pm
Now these cards do not work out of the box. They never will. They originally fitted a bedford CF van. Someone many years ago took one of the CF van carbs and got Chinese company to copy it. Unfortunately they copied exactly with the same jets and tubes in. That is what gets supplied today to VW owners and it is a bag of....... The first thing to do with any weber 34 is take all the jets out and throw them in the bin.

These will give you a pretty good start and you will stand a chance of it running and driving before you waste time on a rolling road

F6 emulsion tube very important. no point buggering with the other jets unless you know this is halfway right
140 main jet
170 air correction
then have a play with any of 55 60 or 65 idle jet

Try it and let me know how you get on ;)
sparkywig wrote:
17th January 2018 - 11:25pm
The 34 ICT was developed for single use on a Bedford CF van over here in the UK as an ICH with choke.
All the carbs currently supplied are jetted for this, not for a VW.
The jets as supplied are;
idle jet 52
main jet 130
air corrector jet 160
emulsion tube F78
needle valve 175

When I fitted them to my otherwise stock 1600 singleport in my bus I ended up with;
idle jet 55
main jet 150
air corrector jet 170
emulsion tubes F3/F6
needle valve 125-140

F3/F6 emulsion tubes have no drilling high up on the tube allowing the idle jet to do its job without adding early fuel from the main jet.
Were in agreement then :D
The sultan of swing

User avatar
sparkywig
Posts: 660
Joined: 28th August 2013 - 12:49pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by sparkywig » 18th January 2018 - 10:52am

Aircooled Johnnyo wrote:
18th January 2018 - 7:19am
Hi Sparky
If you’ve got a link to that, that would be great, cheers.

John
Here you go John, Punnet's unadulterated guide to setting up 34 ICTs.
Unfortunately when the JK Forum was shut down, amongst other things, I lost the amended file that had additional info from Steve (Zedbed) and myself.

PUNNET'S GUIDE TO ICT DUAL WEBERS
BEFORE YOU DO THOUGH ANYTHING YOU NEED TO CHECK THE JETTING. Idle jets are attached to their holders which is the brass screw to the left of the accelerator pump. Unscrew and pull it all out the jet is attached at the end. It has a number stamped on it...If it is 52 it’s too small. Contact Eurocarb or similar company and get 55s minimum but better 60s. You need two one for each carb.

Second jet is the main. Take the top off the carb carefully and slowly. Don't dislodge anything or damage floats etc. Bottom of the float chamber is the main jet. Look at that. If it is 130 or less you need 135s. You need one for each carb. Get your jets before driving and save a lot of hassle later. It’s an easy job but impossible once the carbs are fitted.

You will have the carbs two mounting brackets (which may be 'handed') crossbar linkage (hex one is best) throttle link and two hemi jointed arms which attach to the throttle links on the carbs.. Do THIS first:

Pre tune; Mixture screw which is sited by itself at the front right of the carb as they sit on the manifolds in the engine bay. Turn right in (gently these parts are not strong) and back out 3 whole turns. That’s in the ballpark.

Next throttle; Get your smallest feeler gauge and tighten the rest of them together again so that the smallest one is 'straight ahead' from the rest. Take first one carb and then the next and do this to both...Open the throttle plate (butterfly) so you can stick the feeler inside the venturi (carb tube) from the bottom of the carb do this at the front of the carb and only stick it in so it holds in place when you close the butterfly back up. Let the feelers hang there in mid air. Turn the throttle stop screw IN until the feelers JUST fall to the ground. Do the other one.

Now this will not be right for your engine but it will be BALANCED. Do it a couple of times if you are not sure because once they are in you'll want them to stay in.

You may need to bend the tinware a bit but after mounting the carbs on the manifold fit the left hand one onto the head. Left hand as you look at the engine! Awkward but it'll go just be patient. You'll find removing the no3 spark plug cap to be essential...In fact you might want to change all the sparkplugs while you are at it as it will be more difficult later on...

Tighten her up so she's sat in place. You may find on some manifolds you need to 'modify' the fanshroud a bit...use a rubber mallet or similar to create a little extra room...you don't need much. Newer manifolds are taller and don't have this problem. On single porters use type three single port manifolds. The manifold spurs are for the balance pipe and are essential for smooth running whether you use vacuum take off for the dizzy or an 009. If you have the standard small twin port manifolds you need to drill and tap for balance pipes. You can get the spurs from Eurocarb to do this and the point to drill is marked by a raised blanking bit on the manifold. You see each manifold has two you only drill one so the balance pipe is to the rear of the fan shroud.

Attach the fuel line and tee piece to the carb and fuel pump (I take the pipes round the back of the fan housing and the one from the fuel pump over the top. Use 'crimping' fuel line clamps not jubilee types...they are easy enough to get for 5mm hose not so easy for 7 though. If you can’t get the crimping ones get the ones where no moving parts come into contact with the pipes. Also check that the lines do not get near the thermostat control spring...you'll just have to feel for that...should be fine I haven't had a problem yet.

For 009 dizzy use:
At the same time (important bit this) attach another short piece of 5mm fuel pipe to the port that is strangely unused on the outside of both carbs. Block both up with a small screw and washer. Get a good seal.

For stock dizzy use:
Block off the right hand carb vacuum port and take a pipe from the left hand one to the dizzy vacuum can. An in line anti pulse valve will help (available from Eurocarb) but is not essential.

The vehicle will be more drivable and run cooler with a stock dizzy. The only advantage with an 009 is that you get slightly more zoom at lights...but in a bus that is hardly important. You'll also get more unwanted heat when climbing hills and going down the motorway. The vacuum pipe ought to be long enough to go up to the carb from the dizzy to prevent any possibility of fuel reaching the rather fragile vacuum diaphragm.

Join the balance pipe to each manifold spur and secure. This needs to also be air tight and otherwise will create air leaks and fuel leaks.
Cable tie both pipes (fuel and balance) together and secure away from the fan and the vanes linkages.

Set up the linkage and attach to left hand carb.

Fit RH carb to manifold and fit fuel and balance pipe lines in place.

Fit it to the head allowing for the crossbar to fit in place. A little dab of grease on the end joint helps.
Tighten everything up and check it all again and again just in case. Especially fuel lines. The only bits of fuel lines I fit with screw type clamps is the ones on the carbs themselves in case I want to pull them quickly.

Fit throttle cable and watch the angle. It needs to pull in quite far to get full throttle.

Now the other important thing, Throttle return springs; I don't know who designed these but they are terrible!!! You will note that if you put them on where you are told to they pull the arms UP but not ACROSS to the stop...So you all fit ingenious spring systems (some quite amazing looking) to pull the throttle back to the stop.
Do this instead: Get two stock Solex carb return springs (same as for the Bocar) and fit them into the holes on the throttle arm and on the left carb to the hole on the angled bit of the mounting plate against the fan shroud....There is a hole there strangely if you look at the bottom of that part. On the RH carb there isn’t as it is the other way round (not handed) so you either drill a hole or simply hook the return spring into the angle where the plate changes shape at the top of the mounting section on the carb. Does that make sense? There is a horizontal bit then it changes twice to go vertical to the crossbar linkage...use the first angle. Works a treat and closes off the throttle. The throttle is lovely and soft then and not a pain to keep on the floor. (You may need to bend the accelerator stop tab up to get more throttle but NOT on automatics!!!!) Helper springs which are round and work with the movement are helpful strangely but with the EMPI and Bugpack systems difficult to fit.

Set the arms up roughly (just through the top holes and don't put the nuts on) and start her up. A couple of blimps on the throttle will get her going.

Far too fast? Usual. Turn her off again and get round and take off the arms and screw each throttle stop screw exactly the same...say a full turn and do it again (arms pushed back it) until you get a sort of fast tick over. Make sure it is done evenly. Don't get this bit wrong or its carbs out again and start all over (well perhaps not the mixture again) It’s a pain I know...but worth it.

Leave it running and get round the back and pull the arms off again. This is so that the carbs react individually and you can tune them separately.

Set the mixture. Presuming she's warm move the mixture screw in very slowly till the engine note DECREASES (it may increase slightly at first) and then back out even slower till it settles at its fastest point. Blip that carbs throttle slightly and do it once more...then its set. Do the other. Set the idle speed once more to the tick over you want (850 revs or so) by adjusting both carbs equally and then turn her off. Put the arms on properly (ie get the nuts on this time).

Set the linkages up so that you get both carbs at stop at idle. Remember they each affect the other if you get what I mean. You will need to run the engine to get the final tweak done.
Get someone to stamp on the accelerator pedal while you watch and see that both carbs open evenly and you get full throttle. Engine back off for that one please don't want to annoy the neighbours. Don't do it too much as fuel will be entering somewhere and there is a chance it may get down into the oil!!!

You'll find the whole thing will 'settle' down over a few drives and you may have to reset the arms again but not the mixture!!! And don't 'experiment' with the throttle positions or you'll have to start all over again. What you do to one carb you must do to the other.
You'll notice as you set the arms that there is a sort of 'relaxed' space between the operation of one side and the other. You need to get in the middle of this.

Hope this is useful. If you are getting a professional to fit them give him/her these notes...not to insult them but to help with the crap instructions that come with the kit! Otherwise they may think it’s the carbs that are crap and they are not...well the casting could be better and so could the kits but the CB Performance kits are a bit more expensive (although correctly jetted and fits better and....).

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 18th January 2018 - 3:50pm

Wow

Thanks

John

User avatar
Aircooled Johnnyo
Posts: 115
Joined: 11th October 2012 - 8:07pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by Aircooled Johnnyo » 21st January 2018 - 7:57pm

Well....... I went with 55 idle’s and 140 mains and...... Tip top, wow what a difference. I had just enough time for a 30 road test and finally had good power delivery through all the gears. For the first time I could actually enjoy the drive, needs a fair bit of fine tuning but there is definitely light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks for all the advice.

User avatar
sparkywig
Posts: 660
Joined: 28th August 2013 - 12:49pm

Re: Rolling Road

Post by sparkywig » 21st January 2018 - 8:09pm

Good, now book a rolling road session with big John and get it perfect.

Post Reply