Going electric ??

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Rob 400e
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Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 24th February 2019 - 12:32pm

My ongoing engine issues are going from bad to really bad, I've now developed a knock which is so loud its sets the local dogs off barking! Anyway that's another story. I'm thinking this could be terminal so why not go down the electric motor route... It is becoming more popular on the VW scene so I did a little research. A bog standard electric motor to suit my 411 .... 75 Bh p twenty less than factory petrol and a range of 75 to 100 miles 12 k. If you want something more powerful up to 650 Bh p and 200 plus miles .... 40 k Ermmm!!!! I've decided to get the knock sorted. Anyone any opinions??
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 24th February 2019 - 6:50pm

Electric drill to help remove and broken studs while you are doing the rebuild ;)
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 24th February 2019 - 9:41pm

I can assure you I will not be partaking in any rebuilds, I would describe myself as machanicaly dislexic. However I did appreciate your witty twist. I googled engine knock on type 4 VW the list went on and on, everything from camshaft bearings to busted piston rings and the obvious crank bearings. I'm hoping its to much vacuum advance!!
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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broady_6
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by broady_6 » 24th February 2019 - 10:04pm

When does the knock occur? Idle? Cold, hot, high revs, any revs, but under load ect? If its at idle use a screw driver like a stethoscope at different points on the engine and you will hear a difference in volume. Obviously the louder it gets the closer you get too the source of the noise. Also try draining your oil, if its got metal in it. The type of metal will give you a clue as to where its come from. My money goes on big end bearings.


Oh and electric, wash your mouth out with soap young man!
The sultan of swing

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 24th February 2019 - 10:24pm

When I dare to start up the knock is imediate its accompanied with a faint pinging, I tried retarding the timing at which point the knock dissipated a few hundred decibels but it started coughing and farting so I advanced it again and turned it off. I will try and pinpoint the fault this week but I just don't like starting it up. Regarding the oil someone suggested the filter may need changing. Meanwhile I've got it booked in at Volkstech. So you won't be getting a electric motor any time soon then.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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broady_6
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by broady_6 » 24th February 2019 - 10:27pm

It certainly sounds more serious than a change of oil filter. But examining the oil will me a good start. Make sure they have a look, rather than just doing an oil change. Keep us posted
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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 24th February 2019 - 11:21pm

The problem is I can only describe the problem on the phone so until they have the vehicle they can't diagnose the issue. I suppose the more I can find out the better. I'm preparing for the worse so it won't come as a shock if it's a rebuild.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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broady_6
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by broady_6 » 25th February 2019 - 7:39am

Still, ive you've given them the same description you've given us. Im not sure how they've reach the "oil filter" conclusion. I hope for your wallets sake its a cheap and easy fix though :D
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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 25th February 2019 - 9:12am

Rob 400e wrote:
24th February 2019 - 9:41pm
I'm hoping its to much vacuum advance!!
You've got to love an optimist :)

How old is the oil, how much is there - have you checked the dipstick ?
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 25th February 2019 - 9:44am

Oil level is spot on and always has been, the mileage is 50000. The knock only developed after the air intake manifold was re sealed and new vacuum diaphragm fitted to the distributor, relevant pipe work also. This work was carried out because it wasn't pulling enough vacuum and subsequently not changing into top gear, it's auto. If that's confused you, it's scrambled my non machanical brain.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 25th February 2019 - 12:56pm

Can you put your car details in your signature, it helps us to help you - User control panel (top right) / profile / edit signature :thumbsup:

So oil level is fine, and very low mileage, or been round the clock at least once - probably only once, though my 412LS has been round twice

There's nothing from the job list that would give any suspicion, unless something was dropped into the inlet menifold when it was being resealed - pretty unlikely, but not impossible.

I'm with broady, drain and inspect the oil. The type 4 has an additional filtration system I think compared to a type 3, a removable oil strainer. That should have the cover removed and the gauze inspected
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 25th February 2019 - 8:21pm

It's a strange one, when I dropped the car off for repair the only issue other than not changing into third gear and accelerating was the engine was " hunting " on initial start up but no noise and pretty sweet really. When I collected the car it was knocking it's nuts off.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 25th February 2019 - 8:59pm

When was the work done - I would be giving the garage the option to fix the problem they appear to have introduced and not doing any more work on it. I would suggest you let them do the oil change & strainer check while you wait. I'm worried about para 3 above :(

My first 412LE used to hunt when cold. I could never afford to replace the auxiliary air regulator, that was 35+ years ago though.

Thanks for putting the details in your signature, it's one of the eight 411 saloons I have in my register - just so you know
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 25th February 2019 - 11:27pm

That has been most people's reaction who have heard the story, however I would not make any allegations towards the garage for two reasons. It could be coincidence, or a consequence of the work. The car is booked in at a different garage I'm just waiting for the go ahead, if they decide to strip the engine for whatever reason and find something untoward well then that's a whole new ball game.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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broady_6
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by broady_6 » 26th February 2019 - 7:50am

Its not allegations as such. But if there is a problem its only fair the first garage are given a chance to look at it. If you take it to a second garage and they take the engine to bits. The first garage would be well with in their rights to say "nothing to do with us, someone else has been messing around with this"
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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 26th February 2019 - 4:29pm

Well yes I agree with that point. The thing is I just want a running useable motor, as is its cost money one way or another. I can do without the stress. We shall see what the final outcome is, I will keep folks posted as and when.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 26th February 2019 - 4:50pm

I don't think anyone made any allegations, just responded to the information you provided.

A decent garage (and they do exist) would want to put things right if they did something wrong, but no one wants to fix a problem is someone else has been messing as well, that's why a "hands off" approach can be best.

I assume you don't want to be paying out for a rebuild, so you need to tackle this is the right way so that someone else pays if they messed up. (coincidences do happen, but if was OK when dropped off and not when handed back to you, it seems something went awry while in the garages care)

I had a problem with a fresh engine rebuild - lasted 20 minutes. The fault was with some prep work done by a very reputable organisation. I approached them in the right way, they notified insurers, I got paid in full for the cost of the subsequent rebuild.

I would be happy to have a listen but I have no plans to head over the Pennines in the next few days, sorry
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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richtbiscuits
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by richtbiscuits » 26th February 2019 - 9:10pm

Apologies for asking and it might seem obvious but have you checked the points? If the dizzy has been worked on then the points will almost certainly have been disturbed to get access to change the vacuum unit. Damaged or incorrectly gapped points will make the engine run like an absolute dog. I'd check the points (or fit new ones) then adjust the timing.
'72 412 LE Variant
'73 412 LE Variant
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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 27th February 2019 - 4:18pm

Hello again, thank you for your responses. No I've not checked the points, but would the lack of correct adjustment contribute to the engine knocking? Surely the garage that fitted the said part who are VW air cooled specialist would recognise that and make the necessary adjustments without any prompting. Well I would of thought so.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 27th February 2019 - 4:22pm

When is it being taken in to be looked at

How "tecchy" are you - can someone get a video of the engine running uploaded somewhere so we can hear what you are hearing, well sort of
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 27th February 2019 - 4:54pm

I'm also all things computer dislexic. The car is booked in for early March however I have not been able to make contact with them this week the phone just goes to answer. When the previous garage completed the work they thought would solve the problem they contacted me and said work done however it's now knocking and it sounds like crank bearings. We could investigate but not anytime soon. So I just took it away.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 27th February 2019 - 5:51pm

Have you got a relative or friend that could help with providing a video.

From your earlier description I was thinking big end bearings (as was broady when he suggested looking at the oil) - it would be nice if we could have a listen and say "nah,nothing major, its blah blah blah"
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 27th February 2019 - 7:32pm

Sounds like a plan I will video on my phone and ask someone if they can upload it somewhere. But I will repeat the knocking does dissipate when the timing is retarded I will try and get this on the vid.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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937carrera
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by 937carrera » 27th February 2019 - 7:52pm

Timing retarded = later spark than ideal = not generating as much power from each stoke= not as much energy in each conrod reversal = quieter

That's my idea anyway
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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Rob 400e
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Re: Going electric ??

Post by Rob 400e » 27th February 2019 - 9:29pm

Yes I guess that makes sense. I will make the vid tomorrow and get posted on you tube. The timing is way out but I will start the vid with the timing advanced roughly in the correct place then retard. It won't be perfect but should give you a bit of an idea. Hopefully.
Type 411 Le four door auto .

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