411 sedan handling?

[Rob 400e]

Not a bad day today so I went for a blast! Not out of choice I tend to find myself on dual carriageways or motorways, which is fine but you don’t get the full driving experience. I headed for the winding roads today, it was not pleasant it handles like a bag of ***** .
It’s stock everything there is no weight in the luggage compartment, just looking at it parked you could drop the front 8 cm and it wouldn’t look slammed! It does not like hills and I live in Burnley.
It’s timed to 27 degrees so is pretty nippy around town and is happy at motorway speeds. I know this is the downside of stock motoring. Does anyone have any thoughts?

[purplepeter]

I'd recommend reading up posts by Shawn71, who went through his suspension/steering a few years ago
Here's one bit so you can find him! viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11960&p=58755#p58755
He's a lovely guy, so I'm sure he wouldn't mind a pm or we can point you towards him on Facebook

[937carrera]

Here's another, takr note of the Ray Greenwood references over on Samba and shoptalk

viewtopic.php?t=5481

My 412 variant handles well enough, but it is not a modern car.

[Rob 400e]

Thank you for the replies that was interesting reading. A definite design fault then. That’s only my opinion! Probably best to stick to the motorway. I’m not experiencing any wheel wobble, fingers crossed it’s more a case of oversteer on tight bends.

[Rob 400e]

Sorry! That should of been understeer.

[937carrera]

Check your tyre pressures - you will get that if they are too high, only 18psi needed.

[Rob 400e]

Mine are 22 psi according to the manual, however the tyres are twenty years old, no perishing visible but would be wise to change them I think.

[937carrera]

I think it's fair to say those tyres will be past their best. Also called ditch finders.

Is it really 22 psi according to the manual,maybe the 18 psi is logged in my brain from experience 35 years ago

[broady_6]

Most manufactures recommned replacement after 10 years (I know they have a conflict of interests) but given the legal life for HGV tyres is much shorter. Id guess that 10 years is a good guide. I expect your tyres will be so hard theyre puncture proof, but offer little in the way of grip

[Rob 400e]

I agree it’s booked in next week for four new tyres.

[937carrera]

Go for some soft ones, they're likely to go hard rather than wear out - I think I put Toyo on mine.

Mind you, in my first 412 I went through a set of rear Michelin XZX tyres in 4,500 miles. Oops

[JSR-69]

The VW book says 18psi on the fronts and the understeer is heroic at that. I run mine at 24psi and it's transformed the handling. I would agree that 20 year old tyres would be the problem.

Judi R

[937carrera]

A sack of spuds or two in the front can also be of benefit

[sparkywig]

The VW book says 18psi on the fronts and the understeer is heroic at that. I run mine at 24psi and it's transformed the handling. I would agree that 20 year old tyres would be the problem.

Judi R

Would the handbook figure be for crossplys though? It is in my '67 handbook.
That run much lower pressures because of their stiffer construction.

[937carrera]

Type 4 was radial only

There's a whole thread of stickers over on Samba https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=650196

My manual says 18/28 half load, 23/35 full load

[937carrera]

..... while the sticker in the glove box says 18/28 half load and 18/28 full load

[Rob 400e]

Hi all re tyres got some prices to go on, was taking the advice of soft tyres so Toyo VW classic work out at £82 each or Nanking £39 each both soft compound. Going for the Nanking, also thinking of a strut brace just to start with this can be fitted and removed with no issues, down side it would need to be bespoke, not had a price on that yet.

[937carrera]

There's only 4 bits of rubber that stop you sliding off into the scenery.........

Toyo are £49 on most of the websites, you should be able to get close to that fitted from a local dealer. https://www.tyreleader.co.uk/car-tyres/ ... -87t-12925

I wouldn't fit a strut brace. That will only stiffen the front end of the chassis up, create more understeer and put more stress on the mechanical components.

[Rob 400e]

Big difference to what I was quoted. This was all about handling and the reviews on the Toyos were very good, thinking now I should bite the bullet. As for the strut brace not sure on that, combined with a double anti roll bar, also bolt on item go for test drive see if it makes a difference. Don’t really know to be honest.

[937carrera]

Double anti roll bar (= stiffer) on the front will also increase understeer

[purplepeter]

The Toyo tyres are VERY noisy!
Nankang much better!

[broady_6]

As david says, anything you do to increase the frond end stiffness. with with roll or pitch will result in more understeer. Simple thing sto try are, lower the front ride height more than the rear a small ammount. Or raise the rear a small amount. Try to stiffen the rear end/ reardude rear roll. But remember if you go to far you will end up with oversteer, so be prepare for some opposite lock!

I guess it depends which "model" Ive got them on my daily skoda, austin ambassador and austin maxi. On the Ambassador you can hear the tyres over everything else. The other two theyre fine. Drove the skoda to the black forrest and back in june and didnt notice any undue tyre noise. Guess it depends if theyre proxies or toyo cheap range ect

[Rob 400e]

Googled understeer last night, main causes.... driver!! So will put that to one side I’m an excellent driver. However could be in danger of going down the boy racer route of bolting on every available accessory and convincing yourself you have the best handling vehicle on the planet.In reality it’s probably 25% worse.
From what I read online and you guys the answer is keep it simple, good tyres correct pressures, lower front end, which is not an option because I want to keep it stock. So will need to load the luggage compartment at the risk of fuel consumption.Stay on the motorway.
Does anyone know the coil spring rating on these and are they the same rating across the range ie square back? All the squares I’ve seen to have a better stance.

[937carrera]

I just looked at mine. I have the Toyo 330.

My experience - they're fine, no noise issues for me, though the front end can start to squeal if I am pushing on or the temperatures are hot.

I don't think anyone knows the spring rates when new, the only guy that may is Ray Greenwood. I can confirm that the variant does have stronger springs on the rear.

The springs on the front are progressive - a relatively small amount of weight can bring the front down quite a bit initially.

No need to stay on the motorways, a type 4 can be hustled along if you want, but you need to adapt to the handling characteristics. It's no good jumping out of an M-Power motor or equivalent and expecting the same

Get your new tyres, set them up as recommended and take it from there. Try moving the fronts up / down 2 psi at a time. It's quite difficult to unstick the back end of a type 4 in anything like normal conditions, which isn't to say it isn't something I haven't achieved before. You're from Lancs so should have no problem with all those negatives