412 headlights

Just for 411 and 412 stuff.
User avatar
Kharon8
Posts: 44
Joined: 23rd November 2014 - 2:14am
Location: Espoo, Finland
Contact:

Re:

Post by Kharon8 » 24th November 2014 - 8:00pm

plumcrazee wrote:
shawn71 wrote:A quick question whilst on the light topic, anyone know if the outer pair of lights are meant to stay on when you turn on the main beam or not as mine go down to sidelights when the inner pair are on?
yep thats right dude same as all cars when you put main beam on the driving lights go out ;)
Depends on the country. Here in Finland many 4-light systems (including stock 412) were and are burning 4* main beam when it's on and dipped beams are only on outer lights.

Some more modern cars, like BMW, are running H1 bulbs and outer ones are always on dipped beams and inner ones are main beams only. AFAIK this is quite normal arrangement with new cars, bulbs have just evolved to HIDs & H7 or double HIDs.
Kharon - '61typ2, '63typ14,'65typ34 & '74 412
FVWA.fi Support Group

User avatar
Editor
Posts: 5450
Joined: 10th October 2004 - 8:52pm
Location: Pensford, Bristol
Contact:

Re: 412 headlights

Post by Editor » 25th November 2014 - 2:11pm

We have lenses glued to reflectors with replaceable bulbs, but true sealed beams seem to be USA, but I was given a 12V RHD sealed beam (bulb/reflector/lens all as a single unit) which would work in a Type 3 with appropriate hardware, so they must have been used somewhere else. Maybe it was a different make of classic car that was exported from UK to the USA that used the same sealed beam unit.
Dave.

User avatar
Wireless
Posts: 285
Joined: 13th January 2013 - 1:28am
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: 412 headlights

Post by Wireless » 28th November 2014 - 5:53pm

I bought a pair of 5 3/4 Headlights for a Westfield car for £28 off eBay a while ago, to replace the outer dipped beam and side lights, but they also have the full beam so I'll be fitting a relay and using the sealed beam inner lights to come on with beam, as if they were auxiliary driving lights. Means having a spare power cable added to the loom to power all the lights on full beam, but it just seems odd the outer lamps dipping to side lights.

I also have a set of front indicators which have 21W/5W fittings to have 5W amber running lights to the front, I just have to source some holders to retrofit the rear clusters with similar 5W amber running lights.

Well it is Christmas coming up...
73 de Wayne M5WJF

'76 Type 2 1600 Light Van
'73 Type 3 1600A Variant (UK Reg '92, but age related plate)
'73 Type 4 412 LS Variant (UK Reg '74)

User avatar
Kharon8
Posts: 44
Joined: 23rd November 2014 - 2:14am
Location: Espoo, Finland
Contact:

Re: 412 headlights

Post by Kharon8 » 2nd August 2015 - 10:15pm

It's getting dark here in North (currently it's pitch black and it's just midnight) and I wasn't happy at all with the stock (old) lights, for many reasons.

1) Only 2 bulbs burning at any time.
2) Whole current to feed them goes through the old fuses, dimmer relay and switch, resulting a huge voltage drop.
3) Inner (high beams) obviously aged to replacement candidates (Outers replaced with H4, only low beam connected)

So fix 1) with 4 new 5 3/4" H4 lights (Hella in this case), parking lights on outer ones ( Lights without parking lights á 30e from local parts store and lights with parking lights from a web shop, á 50e with delivery). Solves 3) also.

2) is a harder nut and I've used whole weekend on that. Unfortunately I forgot to measure the voltage at bulbs before I started but improvement nr1 was to clean the dimmer switch contacts (under steering wheel) with contact spray. It helped so much that reddish lights brightened to yellow. :)

Improvement nr2 is to use the old wiring just as driving voltage for relays and I've done most of that (one side) but then I hit a snag.

The light complex has 4 wires coming in and those are supposedly (according to the wiring diagram) parking light +12V (grey), high beam +12V (white), low beam +12V (yellow) and common ground (brown).

At least on the right side it seems that the brown wire isn't really connected to anything (anymore?) as I sometime manage to get a parking light lit with it and sometimes not. Also: If I have the main lights connected to same ground wire, none of them will burn. If I use my own ground connection, no problems with main lights but parking light is not working.

Diagrams claim that brown wire is connected directly to ground ... possibly rusted or mostly broken? That would explain why main light current (2*H4, about 10A) isn't going through but parking light (being only 4 watts) sometimes work.

What is more frustrating the lights were working OK (just very dim) when I started, augh.

On the positive side: I got a preview about the new lights (only one side) and those look very. very bright white even without engine running so I bet I was missing more than 2 volts. (I'll take a pic once I get it working so you can see the difference in brightness: It's huge.)

No major problems on hardware side, only almost all the small screws that hold the chrome ring (which holds the lights attached to the base) were rusted solid so I had to drill them out.

I think I have grounding problem now, it just smells like it. ;) I'll retun to this tomorrow after work.

As a byproduct: If someone wants used and old, but still usable, high beams for free (delivery negotiable, some parts as swap?), throw a PM to me. Slight rust outside and slightly sandblasted glass but better than nothing. Rubber included.
Kharon - '61typ2, '63typ14,'65typ34 & '74 412
FVWA.fi Support Group

User avatar
Kharon8
Posts: 44
Joined: 23rd November 2014 - 2:14am
Location: Espoo, Finland
Contact:

Re: 412 headlights

Post by Kharon8 » 3rd August 2015 - 10:23pm

It was a grounding problem: Ground wire had almost 30 ohms resistance between wire end and actual ground. New, heavy gauge wire to the body and no problems.

One possible reason why the old lights were so dim.

Anyway, I took some pics with new setup on passenger side and old in driver side. Car not running in pics.

http://kharon.suomiforum.com/www/412/IMG_3745.jpg
shows the direct comparison: Left side has relay and right side doesn't. The difference looks bigger live and also the original circuit is now only feeding one bulb, drawing only half of the current so the voltage loss is halved too, making it look much better than it actually was with two lights.

Here's another:
http://kharon.suomiforum.com/www/412/IMG_3748.jpg
Left side has one original low beam, right side has one original low beam + one new low beam and relays for both (with a 2,5sq mm wire directly from battery for each).

As you can (or really can't) see the left side beam is barely visible and very dim compared to two beams from right.

Significant improvement and I'm happy with this. Detail pics of the wire mess (it is a mess) and how it's packed into car tomorrow.

Original low beams are old (but not factory original as those are H4 lights) but I already ordered replacements for those too. Not too bad but worn and not too shiny anymore.
Kharon - '61typ2, '63typ14,'65typ34 & '74 412
FVWA.fi Support Group

User avatar
shawn71
Posts: 1060
Joined: 14th November 2007 - 12:54pm
Location: East Sussex

Re: 412 headlights

Post by shawn71 » 4th August 2015 - 7:44pm

I did a similar job on my 412 and that made a huge difference. Will get around to doing it on my 411 at some point
'70VW 411LE 2 Door Saloon, '71 Beetle and '78 Late bay

User avatar
Kharon8
Posts: 44
Joined: 23rd November 2014 - 2:14am
Location: Espoo, Finland
Contact:

Re: 412 headlights

Post by Kharon8 » 9th August 2015 - 11:39pm

Eventually got new lights with parking lights and did a test view, with one side with old light and the other with new. Difference is significant (but I couldn't photograph it, sorry), so swapping the old ones out made sense.

So now I've 4 new 5 3/4" Hellas and relays & heavy wiring for all of them: From poor lights to very good lights.

Overall cost (about):
- 30e/lamp (2) without parking light (local auto part store)
- 50e/lamp (2) with parking light (from net, delivered: HELLA 1A3 002 850-031)
- 16e for wire/relay/fuse set for 2 lights (2 sets, http://images.biltema.com/PAXToImageSer ... 2000033888)
- 15e for a roll of additional wire(10m, double wire, 2,5mm^2 and basically all of that was used)
- shrinking tube, connectors + other small items.
- 4* h4 bulbs I had in store (GE +60% versions). Won't last longer than an year but difference to stock bulb is visible, so I use these.
~10e for these as these were at sale, 5e/pair.

Total about 200e.

Quick test drive around tells me that was probably worth it, longer drive outside the street lights will confirm.
Kharon - '61typ2, '63typ14,'65typ34 & '74 412
FVWA.fi Support Group

User avatar
Kharon8
Posts: 44
Joined: 23rd November 2014 - 2:14am
Location: Espoo, Finland
Contact:

Re: 412 headlights

Post by Kharon8 » 3rd September 2016 - 11:08pm

Ouch, an update is missing so here's one after one summer and early autumn:

High beams are excellent, no problem at all in seeing, even in rain.

Low beams provide a lot of light but it's too near, not very useful on dark road outside of town. I also know the reason for this: The reference number for these lights was just 12.5 and that means it's almost like fog light: Most of the beam is less than 10 meters from the car nose.

I've almost similar Hellas in other car but those have refecence number 17.5 and those are actually useful in dark road too: Even low beam puts most of the light as far as possible, like 40 to 50 meters, high beam being the same, very good.

So before you buy, check the reference number and fit it to use.
Kharon - '61typ2, '63typ14,'65typ34 & '74 412
FVWA.fi Support Group

Post Reply