412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remember)
412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remember)
Since rebuilding my front end a couple of years ago with advice from Ray Greenwood on the US shoptalkforums I've had a few other Type 4 owners ask me questions on what work I had done etc
So for those who are interested I'll try to recount what was done, however some of the details may be 'sketchy' and missing measurements as I had a computer crash last year which meant that I lost many of the details that was stored on it.
When I bought my 412 from Tim it had the characteristic front end wobble that ti initially put down to a wheel imbalance, you know the sort of vibration through the steering wheel when your front wheels aren't balanced correctly. When I got the car home I had the front end balanced numerous times to no avail.
I then started to trawl the internet to learn as much about these cars as I could, I'm still no expert but am a little wiser, and it came to light that I was not the only Type 4 owner to suffer from this complaint on their car. My research eventually led to shoptalkforums 411/412 pages and in particular to work carried out by the aforementioned Ray Greenwood (whose knowledge seems to be vast relating to these cars). I read as much as I could find but the wobble was bearaable and I couldn't justify the expense of the work required.
However as the winter went on the front end started making some crunching noises over the speed bumps in the village which I was advised was a build up of ice in the front struts due to the contamination of the oil due to failed 30 something year old seals. Therefore come the summer of 2008 I convinced my wife that something had to be done and found a local VW mechanic prepared to do the work (he is no longer trading due to personal reasons).
The first thing to do was to source all the parts required for the rebuild.
1. A pair of front Audi 80 inserts (I'll have to find the part number but they are gas and a vast improvement on the old ones)
2. Enough tool grade steel to machine extensions for the above inserts to make them fit
3. A pair of super beetle top strut mounts
4. A pair of lower ball joints (sourced from the US via ebay)
5. Enough Delrin (plastic used for bushing material) to get machined to replace the front bushes
6. Super beetle strut brace (because it would fit!)
7. Front gas shocks from an early 80s Ford 3/4tonne Econoline van to replace the rear 412 shocks
8. Some Mk2 Golf anti roll bar bushes (not happy with how these have worn so am looking to replace with a less worn pair of Type 4 ones soon)
9. Replacement front rubber bellows and spring seats from a German retailer
10. Bronze to make up a replacement ldler arm bush
I'm sure there was other bits as well but I'll to the list as I go.
Any way whilst the front end was being stripped down the new struts and a better diagram with measurements that I have lost was passed onto a machinist
and this was the result (sorry about the quality)
As you can see the external dimensions of the Audi insert are quite different from the Type 4 insert but it works very well making for a nice firm ride with greater stability. The Audi insert also requires a spacer of just over an inch in the bottom of the 412 strut to make it fit. It could also benefit from a strip of rubber to act as a bushing wrapped around it.
So for those who are interested I'll try to recount what was done, however some of the details may be 'sketchy' and missing measurements as I had a computer crash last year which meant that I lost many of the details that was stored on it.
When I bought my 412 from Tim it had the characteristic front end wobble that ti initially put down to a wheel imbalance, you know the sort of vibration through the steering wheel when your front wheels aren't balanced correctly. When I got the car home I had the front end balanced numerous times to no avail.
I then started to trawl the internet to learn as much about these cars as I could, I'm still no expert but am a little wiser, and it came to light that I was not the only Type 4 owner to suffer from this complaint on their car. My research eventually led to shoptalkforums 411/412 pages and in particular to work carried out by the aforementioned Ray Greenwood (whose knowledge seems to be vast relating to these cars). I read as much as I could find but the wobble was bearaable and I couldn't justify the expense of the work required.
However as the winter went on the front end started making some crunching noises over the speed bumps in the village which I was advised was a build up of ice in the front struts due to the contamination of the oil due to failed 30 something year old seals. Therefore come the summer of 2008 I convinced my wife that something had to be done and found a local VW mechanic prepared to do the work (he is no longer trading due to personal reasons).
The first thing to do was to source all the parts required for the rebuild.
1. A pair of front Audi 80 inserts (I'll have to find the part number but they are gas and a vast improvement on the old ones)
2. Enough tool grade steel to machine extensions for the above inserts to make them fit
3. A pair of super beetle top strut mounts
4. A pair of lower ball joints (sourced from the US via ebay)
5. Enough Delrin (plastic used for bushing material) to get machined to replace the front bushes
6. Super beetle strut brace (because it would fit!)
7. Front gas shocks from an early 80s Ford 3/4tonne Econoline van to replace the rear 412 shocks
8. Some Mk2 Golf anti roll bar bushes (not happy with how these have worn so am looking to replace with a less worn pair of Type 4 ones soon)
9. Replacement front rubber bellows and spring seats from a German retailer
10. Bronze to make up a replacement ldler arm bush
I'm sure there was other bits as well but I'll to the list as I go.
Any way whilst the front end was being stripped down the new struts and a better diagram with measurements that I have lost was passed onto a machinist
and this was the result (sorry about the quality)
As you can see the external dimensions of the Audi insert are quite different from the Type 4 insert but it works very well making for a nice firm ride with greater stability. The Audi insert also requires a spacer of just over an inch in the bottom of the 412 strut to make it fit. It could also benefit from a strip of rubber to act as a bushing wrapped around it.
'70VW 411LE 2 Door Saloon, '71 Beetle and '78 Late bay
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
The strut tower next needed to be modded to accept the new super beetle strut tops/ This involved the central holes boring out a tad and three new stud holes need to be drilled
Once that was done the track control arm bushes were replaced with delrin machined in two halves like the replacement top hat bushes. The original metal sleeve was reused from the orignal bush like so
Once these bushes were sorted the centering rings in the outer holes of the main axle carrier where replaced ( I think it was there and not the outer balljoint hole on the track control arm??)
More to follow later
Once that was done the track control arm bushes were replaced with delrin machined in two halves like the replacement top hat bushes. The original metal sleeve was reused from the orignal bush like so
Once these bushes were sorted the centering rings in the outer holes of the main axle carrier where replaced ( I think it was there and not the outer balljoint hole on the track control arm??)
More to follow later
'70VW 411LE 2 Door Saloon, '71 Beetle and '78 Late bay
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
This is good stuff Shawn. It's the next job for me on my 411 so any pictures, measurements etc are gratefully received.
Kieron
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
Would you mind telling how much all that cost roughly? I have read this with mixed feelings as I have wheel wobble and was just discussing with Simon that I'd better get the wheels balanced........
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
Hi,
You don't need to do the suspension mods to stop the wobble. BUT, you do have to do a load of work with the steering. There is a thread somewhere on it on here.
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5263
Took me a few weeks to sort on mine. I found the biggest difference seemed to be made by fitting a new steering damper, but the other work helped too.
As your car is lowered, your ball joints are probably knackered which won't help but the wobble seems to be mostly due to the long steering arms, old damper, knackered rubber bush in idler bracket and wheel balance problems.
You don't need to do the suspension mods to stop the wobble. BUT, you do have to do a load of work with the steering. There is a thread somewhere on it on here.
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5263
Took me a few weeks to sort on mine. I found the biggest difference seemed to be made by fitting a new steering damper, but the other work helped too.
As your car is lowered, your ball joints are probably knackered which won't help but the wobble seems to be mostly due to the long steering arms, old damper, knackered rubber bush in idler bracket and wheel balance problems.
Kieron
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
I'd go with what Kieron has said here Bee, try and either source a bronze idler arm bush that VW fitted to later Super Beetles ( I think this would have been fitted eventually to our Type 4s as well because the old super beetles suffered from wear in this bush resulting in the same wheel wobble problems) or try and get a machinist to make you one.
As I said before I went the whole hog on mine because both my front shocks were screwed anyway so...
As for cost it was dear due to the amount of labour involved as the mechanic had never worked on a Type 4 so under estimated the amount of work involved. In all all the parts came in at approx £500 (possibly a tad more including the cost of the machining).
As I said before I went the whole hog on mine because both my front shocks were screwed anyway so...
As for cost it was dear due to the amount of labour involved as the mechanic had never worked on a Type 4 so under estimated the amount of work involved. In all all the parts came in at approx £500 (possibly a tad more including the cost of the machining).
'70VW 411LE 2 Door Saloon, '71 Beetle and '78 Late bay
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
I think as it's a tiny little wobble I'll just live with it for now. Way too close to christmas for worrying bout more £££
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
Great thread Shawn. I followed your work on the other thread you had on here...
I can't justify £500 so I think I will fit my lower ball joints and see if the wobble is still there then take it from there. Its been way too cold/snowy/icy/wet to go out and lie under my 412 of late so this job will have to wait I reckon.
I can't justify £500 so I think I will fit my lower ball joints and see if the wobble is still there then take it from there. Its been way too cold/snowy/icy/wet to go out and lie under my 412 of late so this job will have to wait I reckon.
Andy in Durham. Call round for a cuppa!
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
In hindsight, I'm hoping the little wobble I have is most likely to do with the brakes having a seized caliper on one side. Just need to find out the hub size for buying a socket before I crack on with it.
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
Replied to your pm Bee, but just in case it fails to come through the front hub nut is one that has a locking/clamping smaller bolt on one side of it. Lossen that with an allen key and then the hub nut comes of with a large spanner.
'70VW 411LE 2 Door Saloon, '71 Beetle and '78 Late bay
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
Any old adjustable will do for the front hub nut - it's not tight, just enough to allow the thrust washer to move if you push it sideways with a screwdriver.
Dave.
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- Posts: 28
- Joined: 27th February 2006 - 8:56pm
- Location: Arbroath
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
Are the super beetle stut top bearings the 73-79 type or the earlier type?
Yours is looking good mines needs doing now
Yours is looking good mines needs doing now
Some old cars inc VWs
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
Pretty sure it was the later ones as they were the ones that were available from Vw Heritage at the time.
'70VW 411LE 2 Door Saloon, '71 Beetle and '78 Late bay
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- Posts: 28
- Joined: 27th February 2006 - 8:56pm
- Location: Arbroath
Re: 412 Front end rebuild details(at least those I can remem
Thanks mate just getting my list togethershawn71 wrote:Pretty sure it was the later ones as they were the ones that were available from Vw Heritage at the time.
Some old cars inc VWs