'73 Fastback Project

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nitro_warrior
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'73 Fastback Project

Post by nitro_warrior » 12th February 2008 - 11:11pm

Time to start work.

A year ago I got hold of a '73 fastback (my first type 3 and my first VW). Since then its lived under wraps at a friends house until christmas when I towed it round and installed it in my garage, where i've not had the time to look at it. Until now!!!

This is what I know, it looks like some one has started a resto and stopped after the body work. The interior is out and bits are in a box.
There's an engine fitted which apparently worked before the previous, previous owner took it out to change the clutch.

My plan is to try to get the engine running and take it from there. Unfortunatly I don't really know where to begin, the loom is mostly unplugged loads of pipes arn't connected and lots of bits are missing.

So, to the pictures
This is what i'm faced with :?
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I could circle any number of things to ask what they are!
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The car is 1973 injection, you can see the brains poking out of it's hole. This might be a daft question but does it just control the fuel injection? The spark is clearly handled by a distributor (missing leads and a rotor) or has my car been fitted with an older engine?
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More mystery things, for example what plugs into that big multiblock socket to the top left of this pic? And what should be there in place of the gaffa tape on that black thing centre stage?
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No exhaust and only one heat exchanger under here!
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And some shots of the interior. I probably don't need those missing relays anyway!? :?
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Which hole does the ferrit go up?
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So there you have it, i'm struggling a little for knowing where to begin, what plugs where, what's missing, etc etc
I don't even know what questions to ask! So i'll open it up to a free for all.

What would you do next?!?!

All help very greatly appreciated!
Last edited by nitro_warrior on 16th February 2009 - 11:04pm, edited 2 times in total.

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shawn71
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Post by shawn71 » 13th February 2008 - 10:13am

You've got a good puzzle there to solve.

Is it a fuel injected engine? Not a very reassuring question but...

Don't know a lot about Type 3s as I have Type 4 but the multi block thingy could be the plug for the diagnostic thing that VW Dealers plug things into and the gaffer tape looks like it may be blocking a hole that, if it is the same as mine, the manifold breather pipes plug into a flame arrestor there.

Again I could be talking a load of rubbish and confusing you even more and if that is the case, my apologies and I have just made myself look very stupid in front of a lot of people :oops:

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Post by Editor » 13th February 2008 - 12:14pm

Yes, the multi-socket is for the dealer diagnostic system brought in for 1972. Ignore it, but don't let stray wires get hooked into it - one goes to the battery and one to the ignition solenoid. Some people have a jump lead to inch the engine over using the relevant connections.

It's definitely fuel injection. The injectors and air distribution manifold bits are there, and the fuel regulator on the front cover plate, and the manifold pressure sensor on the left of the engine compartment just below the deck.

The air-cleaner is missing - follow the oily stain in your box of bits! So is the engine tinware that covers the RH cylinders.

The tape on the breather box may be holding down a small cap (like the one next to it), but it might just be a hole. They appeared from '72 I think.

The fan-belt cover is important but may be in your box of bits.

Take a good look at a manual that covers fuel injection - the Bentley one is the best. eg eBay item 260210421040 - decent new price too; they used to sell for £40 in the UK back a long time, but then the Haynes was that sort of money in the USA! The other on eBay is for the carb version, and lots more money.

Haynes does include FI, but isn't that good at it - and still recommends you take it to a dealer!!

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Post by Editor » 13th February 2008 - 12:25pm

The ferret holes are normally linked to the heater channel tubes with black concertina boxes, and you're right, the missing relays are for additional equipment. I think you've the turn signal and the headlamp dip relay there - that's usual. Wiring diagram on www.hallvw.clara.co.uk/wire72t3.htm will show colours etc. Doesn't have the FI loom on it though.

There should be an extra relay up under the right side of the dash on the wheel-well that works the FI fuel pump (under the front on the axle behind the left side).

Study a manual and work out what you've got. If you were local I would come and show you.

Dave.

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Post by nitro_warrior » 13th February 2008 - 4:34pm

Thanks for the replies.

Was panicing a bit last night thinking i had bit of more than I can chew, think I was expecting the computer to handle the spark too, but just wanted to check.

I'm glad that block is just for diagnostics, wasn't looking forward to a) tracking down the loom for it and b) working out what plugged in to what.

I'll need to lay out all the bits I have in the box, i've spotted a coil lurking in there and also some tinware, (not to mention the 8 track 8) ) I'll take a pic for you to cast your expert eyes over.

I picked up a Haynes manual and also a Chilton Air-Cooled manual Not sure what you make of that one. Probably a good idea to get that Bentley one too.

I need to make a list of all the stuff I need, will I still find HT leads and dizzy rotors etc in motorfactors or should I just go straight to the likes of T3D.

I'm probably covering old ground so i'm off to search the forum for info, but for stuff like leads is the 1600i type3 engine the same as similar aged beetles and vans?

Cheers for the help and prepare yourselves for 101 more questions!

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shawn71
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Post by shawn71 » 13th February 2008 - 5:46pm

For bits for the Type 3 you could try some of the larger VW aircooled suppliers like VW Heritage and I have even had some succes with Megabug who found some elusive bits for my 412. Both of them have websites, although Megabug don't tend to list all their stuff on it if you give them a ring they are very helpful. (Both do mail order, in fact I think a lot of places do now, which is handy :? )

Good hunting ;)

Although the hardest bit sounds like working out WHAT bits it is you are looking for :lol:

PS What about a pic of the outside of the car?

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Post by nitro_warrior » 14th February 2008 - 11:44am

shawn71 wrote:Although the hardest bit sounds like working out WHAT bits it is you are looking for :lol:

PS What about a pic of the outside of the car?
Yes! Working out what's missing is going to be the hard part :?
Not to mention where the bits go.

As for a pic i'll try to snap one at the weekend, i'll also take a picture of the box of bits.

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Post by Editor » 14th February 2008 - 12:16pm

You'll probably need to change all the fuel lines - they tend to leak after a time and at 28psi they can pour fuel out rather quickly.

There's the help here to do it all.

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Post by nitro_warrior » 17th February 2008 - 11:32pm

Unfortuntly I didn't get much time to play with the fasty over the weekend. Busy preping a Lada Niva for selling and doing a number of outstanding jobs on a Fiat Panda.

That said I did have a rummage through the spare parts box and took some pictures. So here we go.

I'll kick off with some exterior shots. Bit hard to get a decent picture as the garage is a bit cramped. Still it's better than working out in the elements!

Image

I have the windows, but only a seal for the front. Think i'll go for a cal look.

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I also have the seats stashed away, they're in a very sorry state. And the wasp that was sleeping in the drivers seat wasn't very happy with my bum when we towed it round to my house :oops:

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Now to the box of bits that came with the car. I had put them neatly away to one side.

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Better lay all the bits out so we can see what i've got...

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Here's another angle. I have a bit of tin ware, some mysterious pipeing, a spare ecu, a coil, dials, seatbelts, and some other bits and bobs.

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There were a few random things left over in the box. No air filter though. Whilst I try to get the engine running I can make do with a rag and cable ties, unless i'm missing a hidden function of aircooled dubs airfilter?
On the subject my Chilton manual suggests a '73 is a paper filter, but I have a suspision this is only true of American type 3s and mine should be an oil one?

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And for a bigger picture some snaps from inside.

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I have to say it's very disheartning playing with my Fasty. I'm missing so many bits from all over the car. :? If I can get the engine running and the loom under control i'll be much happier. :) From there I could always just fit a couple of racing seats and a roll cage :shock:

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Post by Editor » 20th February 2008 - 1:45am

Quite a lot of the bits are fairly easy to identify. Can you post the pics again with letters on each item so we can tell you what they are?

Your fuel pump relay is hanging next to the relay board under the dash, not that I recommend you power anything up with all the dash wiring disturbed and gauges out.

Use the wiring diags to get an idea of what goes where. Instrument lighting is grey/red. Any browns are earth wires. Black means positive (daft but true, if it's original wiring), so a wire with a black stripe and other colours normally is the power to the switch fo that system.

http://www.hallvw.clara.co.uk/vwwiring.htm

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Post by nitro_warrior » 16th March 2008 - 11:48am

Bit of an intermission fixing other stuff over the past few weekends, but i'm back on the Type 3!

I've decided to not swamp myself with stuff and focus on the engine. So in my box of spares I have identified 2 engine parts (plus tinware which I will leave off for now).
A coil, and a thing I beleive to be a "trigger switch" there's one already fitted to so this ones a spare anyway. So the rest of the stuff will be put away in a box for now.
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So to the engine, and I started by plugging in the loom.

Fortunatly a previous owner had done a half decent job of labeling the wires so I managed to get the loom going in the right direction and a lot of the stuff plugged in.
Unfortunatly the previous owner had done a half decent job of labeling the wires and there are a few with no home! This is where you lot come in! There are some mystery parts and pipes thrown in for excitement!

First off what's this mystery thing? Is it the air pressure sensor? It lives under the floor near the ecu.
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That's where the last component lives, under there. But what's the brass rod, and what should it connect too? It moves in and out about 10mm and makes something "clonk" from deep within the engine?!
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And now some mystery wires.
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Another view of the wires and some extra ones. C, I traced with green and has one end attached to the block. D is a thick black wire that comes out of the loom along with all the wires going to the dynamo.
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Now for some hoses, 1 and 2 are on the vacuum on the side of the dizzy. I expect either 1 or 2 (probably 1) should be connected to 3 and the other to the non existant air cleaner...
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A slightly zoomed out view. A long white wire with no home, E :cry: the last owner has labeled it '31?' if that's of any help. I expect the pipes 4 go to the air filter? And what on earth is the strange linkage X for???
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Here's a closer view of that linkage, and what's the hole next to it? More importantly what should be attached to it?! :?
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Another view of bits we've seen before.
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Cable F splits from the loom with the multi socket you can see going into the side of the carb body (or whatever it's called in an Injection system). It looks like it probably connects to A1, whatever A1 does?
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From my Haynes manual it looks like the coil should mount here. But how there are no bolts that match the coil mounts?
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The last of the mystery wires, they're white and share the loom with a multiblock that goes to the dizzy. Does one of them go to A2? Lead 'I' has been labeled '33?' by the last owner.
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I'm much happier after succesfully connecting up much of the engine wiring. I also dropped my first thing in to the air intake housing, first of many I fear! :lol:

I'm drawing up a list of enginey bits I need to get.
Rotor arm
HT leads
Air filter (Is the Injection an oil or paper filter, the Haynes manual implied late T3s could be paper)
Bellows (? I think that's what its called attaches to the air intake housing to the rear panel)
Dip stick

Let me know if you spot anything else that's critical.
Looking forward to your feedback, would hate to be doing this on my own!!! :? :shock: :lol:
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Post by Editor » 17th March 2008 - 9:36pm

Green rings are round ignition coil and Throttle switch - that gves info on throttle position, and a sort of accelerator pump effect as you move the throttle.

Z is the manifold pressure sensor. The hose on it needs to be in a good shape where it seals as leaks here can make the engine think youy've your foot flat on the floor, so more fuel is injected than is needed - poor economy and bad running.

Y is the thermostat flap operating rod. It's no 19 at http://www.hallvw.clara.net/type3/T3pbo/T3pb1-37c.htm
and the flaps 8 and 10 fit on it, so it shouldn't be coming out like that.

'C' looks like the cylinder head temperature sensor wire. The CHT sensor screws into the cylinder head near cyl 4. the tinware has a round hole about 3/4" dia for a seal to fit. All the white wires in the engine compartment are Injection loom. They have numbers marked on them near the ends - you may need to carefully clean them.
That probably fits to 'B' , but see if you can find a number that corresponds to the CHT lead (23 I think).

Black lead D looks like the coil lead; Is it 1972/73? If so, the brown and green one (?) may simply be part of the diagnostic servicing test socket - white socket, which I think you found previously. Those thin wires are mostly for that. You may find reversing light wiring somewhere in the engine compartment - usually black. Could check if it they're 'live' with ignition on and reverse selected.

A1 is the intake air sensor, connects to white wire number 13? Is that the one labelled F?

You'll want to remove those nylon hoses and hideous plastic joiner! I think they link to the air-cleaner when it's there!

I can't tell what E is - may just be an earth for the injection. See if you can read a number on it/them.

X is the thermostat linkage. Should have a thermostat on the bottom of it.

The coil bolts onto a saddle that mounts both sides on the bolt you've identified - you need to get someone to let you have a spare one really.

Try to find the numbers on the white wire ends - in black a couple of times I think.

G might be the connector that goes to the CHT sensor wire - I can't eaasily get at my FI car at the moment to check. The harness numbers go up to 23 I think.

3 looks like the vacuum take-off for distributor vacuum.

Sorry this is in reverse, it's how it appears when you reply - latest first!
Dave.

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Post by nitro_warrior » 17th March 2008 - 10:51pm

Editor wrote:Y is the thermostat flap operating rod. It's no 19 at http://www.hallvw.clara.net/type3/T3pbo/T3pb1-37c.htm
and the flaps 8 and 10 fit on it, so it shouldn't be coming out like that.

Ah OK so that explains what X is as well! I'll have to have a rummage in my part box, I think I have the flaps, not sure about the linkage bits though. If I don't have the flaps at first is it safer to leave them open or closed? I want to get the engine running but am a bit scared of letting it over heat before all the ancillaries are fitted. :?
Editor wrote:'C' looks like the cylinder head temperature sensor wire. They have numbers marked on them near the ends - you may need to carefully clean them. That probably fits to 'B' , but see if you can find a number that corresponds to the CHT lead (23 I think).
So the wires have numbers on them?! :oops: Better go and clean them! When you say "That probably fits to B" is that C probably fits to B?
Editor wrote:Black lead D looks like the coil lead; Is it 1972/73? If so, the brown and green one (?) may simply be part of the diagnostic servicing test socket. You may find reversing light wiring somewhere in the engine compartment - usually black. Could check if it they're 'live' with ignition on and reverse selected.
Yes, it's a 72/73. I thought D could be for the coil it looks thick enough, the Brown and green one has been marked 'coil' by the last owner, it's pretty thin so I wouldn't be surprised if it's for the diagnostics.
Editor wrote:A1 is the intake air sensor, connects to white wire number 13? Is that the one labelled F?
I can't see 13 or the air sensor on the wirng diagram, am I being thick or is there another list/diagram I should be looking at? Indeed i'm not too sure how the wire numbers fit in general, is it the little numbers at the connections on the components that match the wire numbers?(i'm no sparky i'm a mechanical engineer! :oops: )
Editor wrote:I can't tell what E is - may just be an earth for the injection. See if you can read a number on it/them.
Before you said the white leads were for the injection, I thought white was earth, as there is a bunch of 6 wires going into 3 plug connectors that go staright to earth on the engine. But I was thrown by the white leads with the big plastic covers B and G.
Editor wrote:G might be the connector that goes to the CHT sensor wire - I can't eaasily get at my FI car at the moment to check. The harness numbers go up to 23 I think.
If you could snap me a few hi-res pics whilst you're there that would be great. I'm sure i'm missing loads of bits :(
Editor wrote:Sorry this is in reverse, it's how it appears when you reply - latest first!
No problem what so ever!!! This is extremely helpful, I can't thank you enough. :D Hope you're patient though cause I'm going to be aking lots more questions!!! On the plus side from knowing nothing i'll soon know loads about type 3s 8)
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Post by nidge » 22nd March 2008 - 8:39pm

good luck with the FI system. personally i would dump it and fit twin carbs.
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Post by nitro_warrior » 22nd March 2008 - 10:42pm

nidge wrote:good luck with the FI system. personally i would dump it and fit twin carbs.
We'll see what happens when I eventually work out where everything plugs in and I turn the key!!! If it doesn't go well then carbs may be the way to go!

On the subject of plugging everything I have been looking for the numbers on the wires (now that I know they are there). And here is what's still needing a home.

31 - White (E in pics)
32 - White (near the multisocket going to the "carb", F in pics)
33 - White (near the socket that goes to the dizzy, I in pics)
23 - White with plastic cover (near the socket that goes to the dizzy, G in pics)
19 - White with plastic cover (possibly 18 near oil sensor, D in pics)

No number - Grey (just where the loom enters the engine bay, A in pics)

Can anyone help me with these? The ones with the plastic covers must go into something but I can't for the life of me work out what. :?
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Post by Editor » 23rd March 2008 - 9:27pm

Try an e-mail to Matt Jones, who has a '73 FI Fastback. He's here on the list but not often online at the moment. m@creepycrawly.freeserve.co.uk . He could probably snap some photos for you.

Normally earth wires are brown on VWs, but all the FI wires are white.

I can't be sure about the numbers above 23 - the Bentley manual that specialises in FI Type 3s doesn't go that high on their diagram. 23 is indeed the cylinder head temp sensor.

19 goes to the fuel pump relay (on the front inner wheel well, near the fusebox).

A is an injector lead - one grey one and one black one each side. the grey ones are towards the rear of the car (back of the car!).

3 is the hose connection to the manifold pressure sensor Z.

You've also got the '72 dual-vacuum distributor. There's a (simple) nack when adjusting the timing on those - I'll tell you it when you're closer to running it.

The higher numbers probably connect to the other wire with the same number! The 1 to 23 are the wires on the control box. Other joints probably go on up from that.
Dave.

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Post by nitro_warrior » 23rd March 2008 - 11:36pm

Thanks Dave, more to go on.

Unfortunatly I don't have Easter Monday off and i'm away next weekend so i'll need to find some time in the evenings. When do the clocks change?!
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Post by nitro_warrior » 28th March 2008 - 11:14pm

I really want to get stuck in but I have so much other stuff to be doing. :( Not helped by my commuting bicycle breaking. :roll: However, after fixing my bike (an awesome repair I might add! 8) ) I dropped a battery in to the fasty to see what would happen as way of a reward for my bike repair handy work.

Well first thing the interior lights came on!
So I turned the key, the dash lights came on!
Turn the key somemore and the and the starter motor turned!
Wheeeeee! That was fun :D

Though I should of covered up the black positive lead for the coil as it was sparking on the dynamo housing when running the starter :oops: (bad me :roll: ) So I stopped doing that save I damage a regulator and unconnected the battery happy in the knowledge that some stuff seemed to work and the engine turned over nicely!
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The Project Continues!!!

Post by nitro_warrior » 16th February 2009 - 11:03pm

The Project Continues!!!

It's been a while. Basically I've been waiting for parts... for a year...

To cut a long story short I ordered some 2nd hand parts that never arrived. I eventually got my money back after a fair bit of hassle. I won't mention names as it was sorted eventually, but it was someone advertising on here.

Eventually I got some parts though. A mate on a Lada forum deals with Air cools in Canada and was able to cut me a good deal, even with postage, so last week this arrived!

Image

Image

The project continues.......
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Post by nitro_warrior » 16th February 2009 - 11:39pm

So first update... Yesterday I made a bracket for the coil and drew up a plan of attack! Today, despite my part delivery, I spent a good chunk of the day at Halfords and motor factors getting more stuff!

I've broken the project into 3 areas.
Engine
Brakes
Body work/windows

I'm focussing on getting the engine going. You may note my delivery contained carbs, my contact in Canada, said

"First things first - REMOVE ALL FUEL INJECTION COMPONENTS!!! The Bosch FI is a nightmare! I've got a couple sets of carbs that are for the type 3 I'll dig them out and send you the best pair"

Not sure how true that is! But I got some carbs for free :D Despite that i'll try to get it going on the FI first seeing as it's all there.

So I spent the day sorting out fueling, replacing fuel lines and removed the wing so I could work out what was going on with the filler neck which wasn't connected up correctly. I ran out of fuel hose though so I took a few wee bits off to paint.

Not many pics, only showing the wing off, at least I found the fuel cap release, was there all along just not fitted.

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Post by Editor » 17th February 2009 - 11:41pm

It's a common disease among mechanics, this "nightmare" of fuel injection; if it has wires in it, many mechanics shudder visibly, whetever the device is!

Just a warning: You will probably NEVER get the carbs working properly. It takes an even more expert carb man to sort out jetting to get them to work as well as the FI system. That's why virtually all modern cars have FI. You are unlikely to get a smooth response, controlled even idle, or good fuel economy. However, there are many more mechanics around who will be happy messing with the carbs than with your FI.

The system in the Type 3 and 4 is fairly simple. The brain just measures manifold pressure and temperatures of heads and air to decide how long to hold the injector open. It uses a second set of points below the ignition ones to tell the brain what's happening so the injectors can operate at the correct moments (actually, it's very approximate as two injectors fire at a time). Once the connections are cleaned, the pressure adjusted, and maybe the throttle valve switch adjusted (black unit that is operated by the throttle valve), there isn't much to adjust. Haynes shies away from saying much about FI - the Bentley manual (VW of America) has more. If you've seen the 'Complete Idiot Guides', they go through the whole system with a test procedure, but it's not easy to dip into it half way through.
Dave.

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Post by purplepeter » 18th February 2009 - 1:55am

Ht leads can be obtained from Mike Dempster(miketyp3 on here),or buy 2 sets of beetle leads & bastardise them..but i believe theres an issue with needing rightangled connections at the dissy end on FI engines-so much easier to go to mike.

Rotor arm/dissy cap etc you should be able to get from gsf etc

are you a club member?

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Post by nitro_warrior » 18th February 2009 - 5:25pm

Thanks for the advice. I want to persevere with the FI, it's there so I may aswell give it a shot. I know what you mean about the Haynes manual shying away from the injection system, I also have the Chilton Air cooled manual which seems much more helpful on the subject, with various tests and checks etc.

I have a rotor on order ( I actually have a new electronic dizzy but I want to give what's already there a chance!) I also hopefully have the leads I need, though i've not tried to fit them.

I'm getting close to test firing, the new fuel lines are in, just need to wire up the electrics and get the rotor fitted.

And no i'm not a club member, need to get round to that!
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Post by DelBoy » 18th February 2009 - 5:34pm

There's a lot of info about the FI system on TheSamba here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21015
The guys there have plenty of experience with these systems and the consensus seems to be that they are pretty robust and most problems are down to poor connections rather than anything more serious. Remember the 'brain' isn't an ECU like in a modern car, rather it is an analogue controller which is much simpler.

You can get factory carbs running pretty smooth, but a properly working FI system is still supposed to be better. Biggest problem with the carbs is eliminating air leaks and getting them balanced corectly - once that's done they are pretty good.

In your first post you mentioned paper element air filters, this was a Brazilian market item, not USA. I have one and prefer it to the oil bath (read: oily mess) type. Rover Mini filter elements fit OK, so spare parts aren't a problem. This unit still pulls cool air from the body ducting rather than hot air from the engine compartment like the pancake type filters do.

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Post by Editor » 18th February 2009 - 6:56pm

Maybe I should add that it's the non-stock carbs that are hard to set up. The proper ones with the proper air-filter intakes are fine if all the internals are OK, though FI is more flexible from lower RPM - the carbs work better when there's a decent airflow through them.
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