'73 Fastback Project

For Type 3 and 4 restoration projects, interesting history, adventure trips etc
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nitro_warrior
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Post by nitro_warrior » 27th February 2009 - 10:03pm

So close!! Was jumping it off another car to keep the battery alive whilst I fiddled with bits trying to get it to fire. I managed to get a couple of detonations but she didn't catch.
I've cleaned the spark plugs and set the gaps. Unfortunatly the timing is out as the dizzy has been moved.
How much does not having an exhaust effect starting with no back pressure?
I'm thinking about giving it a squirt of that devil's stuff, cold start, to get it going, but I would prefer not to.
I'm also wondering if the condensor should be replaced. I got quite a big spark across the points when I tested it.
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Post by purplepeter » 27th February 2009 - 10:54pm

Depends what colour the spark was!-blue is good,yellow not so good
Set the timing with a test bulb-turn engine to no1 firing point,turn ign on,put a test lamp between the little black wire inside the dissy & earth-turn dissy til bulb just lights up-you have to fine tune repeatedly to get the precise moment it lights up!
Tighten clamp,re check points & the bugger should run!

No exhaust wont affect starting too much-it makes a gloriously squelchy-bangy noise-bloody loud!& you wouldnt want to run it too long

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Post by nitro_warrior » 28th February 2009 - 12:56am

purplepeter wrote:Depends what colour the spark was!-blue is good,yellow not so good
Set the timing with a test bulb-turn engine to no1 firing point,turn ign on,put a test lamp between the little black wire inside the dissy & earth-turn dissy til bulb just lights up-you have to fine tune repeatedly to get the precise moment it lights up!
Tighten clamp,re check points & the bugger should run!

No exhaust wont affect starting too much-it makes a gloriously squelchy-bangy noise-bloody loud!& you wouldnt want to run it too long
Thanks that's a good tip, I've never needed to do static timing before, I should be able to manage that.

But the spark is pretty yellow, and if i'm honest not as strong as I would maybe expect from the HT leads. The spark at the points seemed big too, though it's hard to judge having not seen a correct spark size, the Haynes manual suggests that's a faulty condensor. What causes a yellow spark?
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Post by purplepeter » 28th February 2009 - 9:17am

The yellow spark could be a faulty condenser,but it could also be shitty points,wrong gap!
judging the yellow/blue to diagnose a duff condenser,you have to be pretty close to it-ie get your head over the dissy!

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Post by Editor » 1st March 2009 - 12:30am

Try turning ignition on and off repeatedly. Listen for bubbles of air returning to the fuel tank. You won't get full pressure in the FI system when the hoses contain a lot of air. Mine gives a sort of 'sigh' when the fuel is up to pressure.
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Post by nitro_warrior » 1st March 2009 - 5:38pm

I think it's getting fuel, I ran the fuel pump straight off the battery for a minute or two to charge up the system and until fuel started coming out the return line. I'm actually not using the fuel tank at the moment and have a temporary lemonade bottle fuel tank so I can see what's going on. I may run some checks on the injectors to make sure they're all ok.

Might get a new condensor just so i'm happy it's ok, where's a good place to get one, don't suppose Halfrauds would do them? I can get there after work, and won't need to wait for mail order.
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Post by purplepeter » 1st March 2009 - 6:37pm

Anything is possible!-Get a new set of points while youre there!
Only thing to note,is what shape the plastic plug in the side of the dissy-round or square!
you might have to bastardise the green wire to make it long enough,but thats quite acceptable
Take the dissy out to fit condenser

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Post by Editor » 1st March 2009 - 6:55pm

I've never had to replace a condensor, in 40 years of VW owner servicing. Some of the components sold these days are not the same quality as the original.
If the capacitor is still good, it is probably better than the one you will put in there! Capacitors don't wear out as such, but they can develop internal shorts so I wouldn't claim they never go wrong.

Coils are another example of this. An old black original VW coil is probably still performing well after 30 or 40 years. Like many young hooligans in the '60s I put a Bosch sports coil in my Beetle, but all it did was make me think the 36hp had become 37hp, and produce a pip on the points, as coil and condensor were no longer matched.
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Post by nitro_warrior » 3rd March 2009 - 10:02pm

Exciting update today.

I fitted new points, though i'm not sure they made that much difference, spark tests seemed to yeild simialr results.

I was still only getting occasional detonations. I decided to give it a blast of dreaded cold start, it spluttered but didn't catch. But a few more attempts and by pumping the throttle whilst cranking it over, she started!! :D

I was so chuffed I made a video, very loud but very happy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2yLUmB_0FM&fmt=18

The revs seem to hunt a lot though, that was it idling, I only pressed the throttle from about 15sec in that video. I'm wondering if the lack of back pressure is allowing it to race a bit before the ecu catches it, or if it's simply timing.

You might also notice small flashes from about 15sec in the engine bay under and to the right of that can of WD40, think it might be arcing...

Anyway i'm pretty chuffed, there's still loads to do but that was a big milestone!
Thanks to everyone who offered advice and encouragement! :thumbsup:
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Post by purplepeter » 3rd March 2009 - 10:31pm

Congrats! :D its a glorious noise isnt it!
Get some tinware & an exhaust on it!
one thing i omitted to mention about the test bulb timing was to line up the timing mark on the front pulley,rather than just using the dissy notch

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Post by Editor » 4th March 2009 - 12:29am

The hunting isn't that in the normal sense. It's trying to run too fast, and the computer knows you don't want it running that fast without holding the throttle open, so it cuts the fuel to the injectoirs until it slows down enough to risk stalling, then it allows the injectors to work again.

Once you've got the air leaks sealed up it will be a lot better. It's probably the hose from the auxiliary air regulator (sits where the fuel pump normally goes) to the air intake manifold that's missing, split or whatever, but might be the one to the maniold pressure sensor.

Once idling at a sensible rate, it may still hunt, but that is more likely timing. I can't recall if it's got the double vac can, but they need precise adjustment with the official technique to get it set right - that should stop the hunting.
Dave.

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Post by nitro_warrior » 26th March 2009 - 11:26pm

Cheers for the tips!
Not got very much done in the last while, been landed with a few extra projects, namely fixing a trailer for the local Scout troup.

However done a bit. Before I can fine tune the engine I want to add some missing bits. Actually the engine will need to come out for stuff like the thermostat flaps which arn't installed correctly. Anyway that's a job for another day. In the meantime i've been painting by tinware! I did the underside of the fuel tank whilst I was at it.

Image

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First question! The tinware, where does it go?
The big bits I can manage, but the little piece, underneath?
Also am I missing any tin? If I am a picture would be really helpful also a pic of where the right place to bolt it is!


As the fuel tank was out the bonnet space looked pretty manky, paint had had made way for rust so out with the wire-brush, primer, and chassis paint.

Before:
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After:
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So once that's dry I can put the tank back in and replace the make shift lemonade bottle that i've been using.


So onto making it weather tight. I just need to clean and paint round the edges of the front, and rear windows before installing the glass, just need to get 1 or 2 litres of Ford Radiant Red...
Unsurprisingly the window seals on the doors are no good so dismantled the drivers door, and found lots of extra rusty bits.

Here's why the window wasn't winding up and down, the strip that the window sits in has a big split in the runner...
Image
Are these easy to get hold of or should I fabricate my own?

Also the quarter light is a bit more foobared than I expected, the bottom mount has rusted off and in general it's a bit of a state:
Image

Finally I discovered the bottom of the door has been patched. It's been finished well on the outside but left unsealed on the inside, i'll need to paint it up. Fingers crossed it won't start bubbling immediatly once it's on the road.
Image

Run down of this instalment's questions!
What tinware am I missing and where does it go?
Can I buy window support slider thing from somewhere or do I need to fix mine?
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Post by Editor » 27th March 2009 - 12:45pm

The window support is also used by quite a lot of Beetles so it should be available.
Tinware pictures and lots of other Parts Book illustrations at http://home.clara.net/hallvw/type3/T3pbo/index.htm

The small vertical plates are earlier versions - you can see the similarity.
Dave.

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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by nitro_warrior » 1st June 2010 - 11:22pm

I'm glad i'm back on the forum! In the time i've not been on I have made some (slow) progress.

Reconditioned the window parts.

Fitted a head lining.

Installed windows.

Took engine out.

Rewelded some curious repairs by a previous owner.

As ever I have lots of question but i'll start with pictures of the work i''ve done!

Image

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Image

Image


And the windows!

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Not super happy with the side windows, can't get them to sit as neatly as I would of hoped...

Anyway now I've dropped the engine out and scratching my head as to what I have and what I need. Stay tuned because I have questions!!!
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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by nitro_warrior » 13th September 2010 - 12:36am

In what feels like the worlds slowest project... I have fitted all the tinware on the engine and, (after much cursing) fitted the engine back to the car.

Image

Next I need to suss out the best injectors of the 8 i have, then fit them, and re-plumb the fuel tank. Next job will be the brakes, and i'll almost be finished... Unfortunatly my brother's land rover has broken again which will delay things yet further.
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Re:

Post by nitro_warrior » 7th March 2011 - 10:59pm

[b]nitro_warrior[/b] Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:02 pm wrote:Exciting update today.

I fitted new points, though i'm not sure they made that much difference, spark tests seemed to yeild simialr results.

I was still only getting occasional detonations. I decided to give it a blast of dreaded cold start, it spluttered but didn't catch. But a few more attempts and by pumping the throttle whilst cranking it over, she started!! :D

I was so chuffed I made a video, very loud but very happy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2yLUmB_0FM&fmt=18

The revs seem to hunt a lot though, that was it idling, I only pressed the throttle from about 15sec in that video. I'm wondering if the lack of back pressure is allowing it to race a bit before the ecu catches it, or if it's simply timing.

You might also notice small flashes from about 15sec in the engine bay under and to the right of that can of WD40, think it might be arcing...

Anyway i'm pretty chuffed, there's still loads to do but that was a big milestone!
Thanks to everyone who offered advice and encouragement! :thumbsup:
I can't believe that post was 2 years ago! Well I guess I'm persistent if not fast...

So just over 2 years later I have had the engine out to fit tinware etc and have put it back in. But, although it turns over nicely I now have no spark...

To be honest I've not investigated that hard. Was hoping someone could give me a head-start with stuff to look at whilst I remind myself of where I've been and get my head in gear!
My multimeter is showing +12V and -12V at the coil terminals. The coil is getting warm during cranking too, but I get no spark from the main HT lead when I jam a bolt in and hold it near the engine casing.

In theory everything is the same as when I was running it 2 years, though I might have plugged something in wrong...
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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by Editor » 7th March 2011 - 11:24pm

Make sure + is on coil terminal 1 (or +) and points are on 31 (-). With engine in such a position that the points are closed, turn on ignition, and flick open the points. What sort of spark do you get - small 'click' is good; fat yellow may mean bad condensor (not usually the problem).

No obvious spark may mean the points are dirty - they tend to oxidise a bit with time.

If the air is damp, try using a hair-dryer to dry off the ignition components.

Over a long period the fuel delivery hoses dry out and it does take a lot of cranking to get the fuel to flow back into the carbs. Try a small squirt of fuel into the carbs if all else fails.
Dave.

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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by nitro_warrior » 8th March 2011 - 12:00am

Thanks Dave. I'll check the wiring, and that point check sounds familiar. I needed to do this before as I didn't have a spark, unfortunately I can't remember what the resolution was. Indeed I've been horrified how bad my memory is regarding this! Though I do remember that replaced the points 2 years ago as the old ones were pretty dirty.

It's a Fuel Injection so no carbs. I fed a 12V lead to the output to the fuel pump to run it solidly for 30seconds. The pump didn't change "note" so I may need to suck some fuel into the pump to prime it, I think I remember doing that before too...
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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by purplepeter » 8th March 2011 - 12:03am

errr...Its an injection engine Dave!
Suck the fuel through with your mouth Donald-saves a lot of faffing around!
Did you ever sort out those fresh air pipes under the heads??...Found a pair the other day & thought of you!

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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by Editor » 8th March 2011 - 11:34pm

Oh, that's what those red pipes are then!

Pardon my poor observation.

Check your trigger points then! But don't bother until you've got a spark at a plug lead. Clipping the timing light pick up can show if you have a spark in any of the leads, though when i put mine on the HT lead it overloaded and needed a while to calm down again! I thought I'd wrecked it.

Hmm, coil warming up with just cranking - sounds as if the points aren't opening. Got a gap?
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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by nitro_warrior » 9th March 2011 - 9:58am

Editor wrote:Oh, that's what those red pipes are then!

Pardon my poor observation.

Check your trigger points then! But don't bother until you've got a spark at a plug lead. Clipping the timing light pick up can show if you have a spark in any of the leads, though when i put mine on the HT lead it overloaded and needed a while to calm down again! I thought I'd wrecked it.

Hmm, coil warming up with just cranking - sounds as if the points aren't opening. Got a gap?
I think the coil getting warm is the clue. I'm not sure what could cause that, but checking the the points are opening is probably a good suggestion. I'll double check my wiring too and let you know how I get on.
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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by nitro_warrior » 14th March 2011 - 12:56am

Well got a chance to look at the car today. True to form I had completely forgotten what I had done when I encountered the same problem 2 years ago, so I'll document what I did here for future reference if nothing else!

After double checking the wiring and satisfying myself that was ok. I followed the Haynes fault finding guide in a hunt for a spark and got as far as the points. When I manually opened them with the ignition on I got a spark from the HT lead to the engine casing. The Haynes suggested in this case the points would need adjustment though I was skeptical as they are new and the gap was fine, however I took them off and discovered they had oil on the contact surfaces...

So after cleaning the oil off I achieved a spark. So after priming the fuel pump (sucking petrol over my face in the process), twiddling the distributor timing until it was almost firing, and giving it a spray of dreaded cold start... she started!!

Very loud, and pretty flamey (i'm not sure how normal that is) but it idles much better than before. I discovered when I had the engine out the inlet pipes were only finger tight, so it will have been a really lean mixture when I had it running last.

[Too Long Didn't Read]
Cleaned oil off the points and she started! Here's a video!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI6UWqgCj98
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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by nitro_warrior » 12th April 2011 - 9:20pm

Well i've done quite a bit on this just been a bit lazy taking photos.

However, today was a milestone day. I drove the car first time under it's own steam!

Only to reverse it out the garage to cure the exhaust paint and to drive it back in. The brakes don't work, only the handbrake, but the engine and gears work so I'm happy!

A blurry not very exciting picture to mark the event!
Image
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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by volkswalker » 14th April 2011 - 10:46am

congrats!
we dont stop playing because we get old.... we get old because we stop playing

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Re: '73 Fastback Project

Post by nitro_warrior » 15th April 2011 - 12:26am

Thanks! Promptly set it on fire though. Yesterday I went to turn it around in the garage so I could work on the brakes more easily. So I thought I would take it down the road seeing as I could! But as I went to change into 2nd smoke started billowing thickly out the dash so I killed the ignition, unplugged the battery and pushed it back to the garage. The smoke was so thick I couldn't see the door handle to jump out!

Fortunately I think I got off lightly. An inspection revealed when I went to push the clutch, my knee knocked one of the many loose switches and relays and the live terminal on the hazard switch earthed on something and melted it's coating.
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