1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 31st December 2014 - 6:53pm

Well ive neglected this a little haven't I. Dont know why but i pulled the front beam off at the weekend. Last bit of the running gear/underside to do.

I pulled the rubbers off, separated the spindals from the ball joints and pulled the torsion bars out.

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To find a bloody rotten hole!

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Fortuitously I thought ive got a second front beam, ill just build into that.

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Only to find it had rotten on the other bloody side!

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I took my most delicate podger and my lightest tapping hammer. I went over both beams to find any other holes which might be lurking and decided the second beam would be the least work to repair.

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I also decide to cut the bump stops off of the original beam, sand blast them and then weld on to the new beam as they're in far greater condition. In the sense that they actually have somewhere for the rubber to mount!

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In the mean time ive got to get my hands on a set of track rod end rubber boots, steering donut and the steering column bushes. I shall keep you posted!
Last edited by broady_6 on 2nd July 2017 - 9:19am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by Editor » 31st December 2014 - 10:47pm

That's not uncommon, but devastating to find hiding. I once had a camper fail its MoT due to a small crusty bit on the front axle, but it was a much bigger hole when I finished exposing the full extent.
Looks like a decent repair anyway, and it's not a repair the MoT man would be able to see to worry about.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 1st January 2015 - 10:26am

Yeah as soon as I pulled the rubber off I saw someone had only been waxoyling the easy bits. And that rubbers a nice water trap. Ouch! Much more of a worry on something with the mass of a camper. All being well ill get the bearings inspected today and the bump stops swapped over. Seems reasonably warm out there!

Anyone got any tips for removing the bearings? Bentley says use a slide hammer. Which I don't have. :(
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by Editor » 1st January 2015 - 12:16pm

I'd be inclined to clean the grease off the needles and inspect the rollers - should be able to get a reasonable look and feel for corrosion. Did the beam still have the torsion arms in there? If so, their condition would give you an idea of the state of the bearings.

The proper removal tool is indeed a slide hammer which uses an oval washer that can be tilted at an angle to insert behind the bearing. I've never done the job though. The upper bearing is special to Type 3 - Mike Typ3 is getting them made in small numbers I believe. The lower is same as a ball-joint Beetle.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 1st January 2015 - 5:18pm

Its absolutely packed full of grease in there, and its reasonably clean. Though I would hope it would be as i tended to pump some fresh in every 6 - 12 months and I had the car around 6 years now. In fact I think its 6 years next week! The beam did indeed still have the arms, both were complete disc to disc. I had a quick look and all seems well inside but I shall confirm once ive got the rest of the beam sorted. I will examine the arms later this evening and see what I can learn.

Today I put a couple of hours into bump stop repair. Its left me no better off unfortunately.

The chosen ones started the afternoon with this appearance.

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Admittedly they appear pretty grotty but, crucially they gave the impression of completeness. I removed them from their former home and spent half an hour with the sand blaster at low ish pressure. To reveal, one bodged repair and a some terrible holes!

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Im still undecided weather to try and make a pair of replacements or reconstruct these two. I also have the third option of giving the ones which remain on the beam a through going over with the wire wheel and see how much is left.

An evenings pondering ensues. This couple of week long job is soon getting out of hand! and im back to work on Monday. Oh well at least there's salt on the roads!
Last edited by broady_6 on 2nd July 2017 - 9:24am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by mjrpoulton » 1st January 2015 - 6:54pm

I have used a cut down rear mounting bracket to replace the bump stop thimble on my T34. This bolts to the spring plate on swing axle cars. You should be able to find this secondhand or you could even buy a T1 version from Heritage at £35 each- part number 131501189A! You can leave a bit of the metal around the thimble to make it easier to weld to the beam.

Mark
Mark
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1972 411LE 2 door
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 4th January 2015 - 8:45pm

Cheers for the tip off! I spent a while pondering this, first i decide to get the body of the mount in to a serviceable state. As luck would have it I only had to put in two small plates, the rest is still rather solid. I intent to drill a couple of small holes both top and bottom, not only to help prevent the build up for water, but to allow me to spray in metal protection.

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I will also be using seam sealer over the welded before I cover with paint and then top coat.

I stole another hour this afternoon and cut the bump stops off the new beam in order to finish cleaning up the rust and grime around the end of the tubes. After some careful measuring and remeasuring I made the cuts. All went all, I offered the new bump stops up and they line up perfectly. I then had a poke around what used to be inside the bump stop and it was crusty :(

Not many seconds of picking and I was presented with this.

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For a clean, paints and replacement of wearing parts, this is turning into quite a big welding and fabrication job!

The other side aint to clever either.

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And to bring unlimited joy to my last of my 10 days off.

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Ignore the paint, its purely to stop the clean metal from browning while the beams in this state of semi repair. On the upside the last repair should be fairly straight forward if the spot welds give in as easy as the other have so far.

Its all left me wondering, was I better off with the original beam, do I return to it and see what I find, or now that im in it this far, plough on?

Also found and bought some bilstein ball joints on ebay which are less than half the price of the leading classic VW suppliers.
Last edited by broady_6 on 2nd July 2017 - 9:28am, edited 1 time in total.
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In2Rust
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by In2Rust » 4th January 2015 - 9:49pm

I know you have done a load of work on these beams but I have a RHD beam if you need one.

will advertise soon but message me if u need it.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 4th January 2015 - 11:12pm

Sounds rather tempting. How much are you looking for? And where are you? Cheers
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 11th January 2015 - 3:36pm

It was predominately outside in, got my steel chisel and broke it open enough to get my tin snips in there. Cut out the rot and welded a small plate in. I will be drilling a small hole in which I can spray waxoyl. Following this, I set about repairing the remains of the bump stops.

I cut the thimbles off

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I got a bit carried away and missed a few photos, but I used the shank from a 18mm bolt for the stub. I welded the thimble to the stub from the inside, This proved tricky with the thimble being 1mm and the bolt being 18mm. But a bit of practice got the set up right.

Next was 15 minutes of careful measuring to align the bump stops on the new beam, I inserted both arms and turned them to positions which would see them contacting the stop. Then checked for clearance for top arm removal.

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The small holes in the lower area in the last post, I dotted a bit of weld in the small hole and the holes on the flange were cut out. I sliver of metal was cut and glued in.

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While that was drying I took the torsion bars out of the arms and washed all the grease off. Unfortunately I found this on the lower NS arm.

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Fortunately this arm is from the old beam, which means I can dig out the one for this new beam and hopefully there is no internal damage on this beam.

The remainder of my Saturday afternoon was spent trying to remove the stubborn ball joint nuts. I couple of hours of WD40, wire brushing, and a propane torch. My windy gun couldn't shift them. I ended up hanging off my 2 bar and then hitting it with a 2lb lump hammer to crack them. Then the windy gun got them off.

I had only ordered new lower joints as the top were in spec.

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But after removing the tops the threads were shot as were the rubber boots so ive ordered a set of tops too.

On with the protective paint,
Last edited by broady_6 on 2nd July 2017 - 10:04am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by Editor » 13th January 2015 - 1:57am

When I replaced a top joint, the nut couldn't be re-used, and there wasn't one with the new joint (well, not new, ex a stand at a show!). I asked our friendly VW guy to remove one from an old beam, but the thread was shot on that - the next one was OK.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 15th January 2015 - 8:00pm

I think the threads on the ball joint its self arent to clever either. And it seems im now in for a penny in for a pound. So 4 new ball joints it is. After looking in my bentley manual, asking on here and looking on the samba I decide to make the standard removal tool for the lower inner bushings. It was actually really easy! From picking up the bit of plate to holding two bushes in my hand took about an hour. Though I do have quite a well stocked workshop which always helps.

I can only assume someone forgot to grease them for about 20 years

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With time on my hands I got the other beam back in the workshop and pulled the spare arm out. Luck was shining down on me and it wasnt scored so it will find a new home in my front axle assembly. I dropped the two arms and knackered bushes off at the machine shop this evening and should have a pair of useful bushes this time next week. And made from a more friendly material.

It also sadly looks like im going to be needing upper needle bearings, as when I cleaned the grease out it was very brown. I also noticed a few lumps, upon further inspection they were needles. Thought I will again be looking at the other beam to see if they are salvageable. If the mood takes me this evening I will make the washer to remove them.
Last edited by broady_6 on 2nd July 2017 - 9:31am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by Editor » 16th January 2015 - 3:01am

My well-maintained marina blue '71 Variant that rusted out 20 years ago looked a likely donor for a front axle in case I needed one, but the inner ends of the torsion arms were scored much the same as yours. Certainly there had been no skimping of maintenance and I had owned it from 5 years old (the car!), and the previous owner was a fastidious engineer type, so I'm sure it had been properly looked after by him.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 8th February 2015 - 2:59pm

Having thought about it a little while after the grease has two ways to go. Through a tiny gap between the shaft and a bush or through a bearing and the shaft. So I expect most of the grease is going the wrong way and no lubing the bush.

So what have I been up to? Well not all that much. But there is note worthy progress.

This prompted me to clean out the tubes.

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Along with the bearings.

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My freshly manufactured bushes arrived, i had then made from bronze to help self lubricate. They dropped straight in, I was expecting to be filing and fettling. So this cheered me up a lot!

And much the same on the upper tubes.

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One of my thrust washers was damaged, so i pulled one off of the spare beam and cleaned it up. Both are well with in spec and uncracked.

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I haven't been very snap happy so a few steps forward and the arms are sand blasted, painted and freshly ball jointed with lashings of graphite grease.

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And try assembled. everything went in first time.

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With the beam put to one side, I measured and inspected the steering box. The lip seal in the base was of no use, so I ordered a replacement from brammer and in the mean time I cleaned the output shaft as it was heavily pitted.

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Still some further polishing required, but with only 10 minutes work im impressed.

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Made my own top gasket and sealed the top back on,

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Im not 100% sure if im going to use grease or oil as the lubricant. I'm heading towards either millers steering oil, or the penrite semi fluid grease. what do you guys use?
Last edited by broady_6 on 2nd July 2017 - 10:14am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by Editor » 10th February 2015 - 12:54am

They're originally grease-filled, but not sure what sort would be best. I've not seen any special sort required, but maybe I'm being simple.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 10th February 2015 - 6:49pm

Am I right in thinking that earlier ones were oil filled? And I assume down to leaks VW changed over to grease?
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by Chino » 10th February 2015 - 9:36pm

From what I've read recently about steering boxes the later ones were grease filled, a lot of people prefer that as it's less likely to leak apparently.

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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by Editor » 11th February 2015 - 1:59am

The late '50s Beetles were certainly oil filled. I don't remember if our '64 Type 3 was or not. Looks like it changed in '65, as there is an extra plug required for the earlier ones.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 15th February 2015 - 7:20pm

Thanks both! I think i'll be heading for grease then. I'd hope having changed the seals and gaskets that the thing wouldn't leak if I filled it with oil. I dont expect the steering box has and bronze in it. Otherwise ill have to find a suitable no corrosive grease.

I've found it quite difficult to tell from the parts catalogue whether the steering column top bush should have a bush between it and the column. Regardless I have a gap between the bearing and the shaft and I found a superseded part for beetles on VWH, at a few quid I thought id take a punt on one. Its OD is too small.

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And unsurprisingly the ID was too small for the shaft.

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I did spend half an hour one evening having a look for a part online, but figured it would be quicker to just make what I need. A top hat bush.

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Its still a fraction over size on the OD but it slides on the shaft quite nicely. This will clean up a lot of the slop in my steering with the addition to the correctly adjusted steering box and new ball joints!

I cleaned up the remaining parts of the steering column and gave them a lick of paint.

With the fortuitous warm weather forecast for the weekend I set might sights on a day outside as I had cleaned up the frame head and bulkhead to reveal (remind me of a hurried repair I had carried out) and two holes in the lower front corners.

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I spent most of the day just removing all the crap! Its the job I hate the most so I thought id get it out the way.

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I removed the two pan bolts and it this didn't take much persuading to remove and promptly felt to bits in my hands, Ive got quite a fab up job to do there.

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The crap previous repair was simply a big plate tacked over the top to fill the hole to get me on the road for EBI 4 years ago.

After is removal I was saddened to find a terribly rotten inner panel.

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I think quite a bit more is going to need removing here. Its rather well eaten.

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I started making up templates for the myriad of horrors. Ill also be adding a couple of extra holes to allow me to waxoyl in between the skins. The air box had rotten through and l think water had run down from there to this section which is why its left in such a terrible state.

Ill keep plodding on!
Last edited by broady_6 on 2nd July 2017 - 10:24am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by purplepeter » 15th February 2015 - 11:30pm

Back to the subject of grease/oil in the steering box...I've always had it in mind that if it came to it, I'd try red fluid grease-Usually used on chainsaw guide bar noses & Strimmer angle drives

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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 16th February 2015 - 12:42pm

Should have good anti fling properties! Sounds like its worth a look. Ive got plenty of time to decide unfortunately.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by col1600 » 17th February 2015 - 12:07am

bet your glad you went poking about down there now!!!

never mind its all do able, and looks like youve got her back to good metal, get out the rice crispies box and start cutting and the job will be a gooden.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 17th March 2015 - 10:08pm

Lets see if i can remember what I was doing then, its been a month! Yes col1600 I am glad in a fashion. Though id liked to be been driving by now. I thought if I started at christmas it would be all wrapped up by the end of feb!.

I carried on hacking lumps out of the firewall I repaired the lower skin and then formed this over the top. One hell of a shape to make, but it a decent repair. Just needs waxoyling from behind now. I wasnt to hot with the pictures because it was a cold day and I just wanted to crack on and get back inside!

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I then had ago at this electrolosys game and im rather impressed. It saves hours leaving me to do the nasty repairs.

https://nmadyw-ch3301.files.1drv.com/y4 ... pmode=none

Experimental contraption. This will upgraded to half a blue plastic 40 gallon drum.

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Results

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I had used a 12v car battery charger and as you can see there was still some light rust showing, so I connected up an old car battery and......

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Much more respectable finish.

Oh what a horrible mess. Ive done a fair bit of work on this since, fabricated the new panels and put a few hours thought into how ill graft them in. Ive even cleaned the whole area down and given a lick of etch primer. It doesnt seem quite as bad now.

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Last edited by broady_6 on 2nd July 2017 - 10:29am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 7th February 2016 - 8:00pm

Finally found the photos from what appears to be feb-april last year! I believe I was trying to fix a rotten corner. I had to make a nut cage and first of all something to mount it on. Roughly cut and tacked to offer up.

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Id love to offer some more details but I honestly cant remember!

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I obviously wasnt in much of a photographic mood or Im still missing some photos

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I assume some time much later the beam went on with all its fixtures and fittings.

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I think took her out for some test miles only to continually get very angry that the lightest drops of water resulted in the inside getting soaking wet. I had no idea how the airbox worked, and as it had only a tiny blister on the outside of the under bonnet bulge I just left it alone.

In the end I ran out of other rusty bits to fix so I cut it open.

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If I had known how the sodding thing worked id have realised straight away where the water was getting in and sorted it. The car wouldn't have spent nearly 3 years off the road as it almost exclusively rained when i took the car out and there is only so many times you can smile while mopping the floor out in the p**sing rain.

Ill be going to dig her out of storage in the next couple of weeks and get this airbox repaired!
Last edited by broady_6 on 2nd July 2017 - 10:36am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 7th February 2016 - 9:07pm

Great to re-read the earlier updates and see that you're going to be getting her back on the road soon.

Any target day / show in mind ?
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