1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

For Type 3 and 4 restoration projects, interesting history, adventure trips etc
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 19th May 2019 - 9:52pm

Positive camber, sorry that just doesn't compute :badgrin:

OK, so you are sure the floor is level, the chassis is straight enough, both front's are set to positive camber.

I'm going to repeat the comment that the toe setting you have is total toe..... so it should be half that for each wheel. From your notepad it's the right hand wheel that should have been adjusted

What happens when you let go of the wheel, is it just a slight pull, or is it like a self centre-ing effect, in which case is castor within spec both sides.

You can really only be sure about the setting after you have been out for a drive, the suspension needs time to settle.

My experience of retail 4 way alignment shops is that they can measure, they can give you a pretty printout, but they can't adjust half the time because they aren't very good with rusty fixings (not applicable in your case), but do you think they will actually know how to adjust a type 3 ?

I would DIY, then you know it's right. Wish I was closer, this sort of stuff is easier with two, it gets very boring lifting Dunlop gauges into place, setting them back for adjustment, moving them out of the way while you move the car about, and then completely out of the way while you do a test drive, followed by repeat until finished.

What's the front & rear track of a type 3?
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 19th May 2019 - 9:58pm

broady_6 wrote:
19th May 2019 - 9:36pm
The only other thought ive just had is the bottom ball joints. The original items had slots in the bottom which were tapered. the book says the deepest part of the taper groove should be forward. My replacements don't have the taper groove, so maybe ive got one in AAF. Ill have to see how I go about figuring it out
Yes, definitely check that.

Polo 6N2 have handed ball joints. With 13" wheels everything is fine. With 14" wheels you swap them left / right. The GTi has 15" wheels and there are no instructions in the official workshop manuals. You need to fit them as per 14" but no-one knows, including GSF and ECP. I spent ages trying to get one to fit, but I could just tell that it was offset front/rear incorrectly. I ended up buying the wrong one third time around and that was perfect
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 19th May 2019 - 10:07pm

Yeah as above, I shortened the right hand track rod. Which seemingly made no difference. And there are very few turns left on the track rod. Starting to wonder if Ive got the arm on the steering box in the wrong position. It was so many years ago I cant remember. Much like the ball joints.

Its a self centering, it doesn't wander about it just rotates to its neutral position and sits there. To give an idea, if I run down the wrong side of the road the camber of the road vs my dodge tracking just about keeps it in the straight line.

All I need is for them to measure. I know how to adjust it and Ive got the book with all the specs. I know them well enough that they are happy for me to be on the shop floor with tools in hand or pointing and telling them how to change bits.

Ill check the ball joints at some point this week. My note books in the garage with the track info. Ill have a look tomorrow.
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 19th May 2019 - 10:29pm

Means nothing to me but 6th post for steering angle ?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=482601
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 19th May 2019 - 10:33pm

Oh, and if your rear toe really is at 0 degrees, then run a string round the back of the rear tyre and down the length of the car and see where the string is relative to the front wheels when the string just touches the front edge of the rear rim.

That might tell you if you are at 0+0 or +30 -30
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 19th May 2019 - 10:42pm

Jibberish to me too. But ill check that page in the boom and see what its on about.

Rear toe really is 0. But that's relative to each other. Could be 3 degrees relative to parallel. For all I know 😂

I'll see what sleep does, but right now I've lost interested and will just pay for a laser to do the work/save time.
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 20th May 2019 - 9:48pm

track front 1310 rear 1350
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 20th May 2019 - 10:16pm

So either a 40mm spacer to get the wheels parallel on the car, or some nifty trig with a calculator to determine what the difference in wheel to string should be at front parallel. You can work it both ways, string backwards and you can compare measurements at each side against what you expect to see for rear toe.

A bit rambling, but I think you can figure out what I mean, it's all about getting a fix on rear toe left and right.
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 20th May 2019 - 10:40pm

I feel a credit card and a laser alignment machine will get used very soon. There are many other things I want to get on with. Making endless adjustments that make no difference to the direction the car travels is wearing thin. It's not fun anymore and this cars supposed to be fun!
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 20th May 2019 - 10:49pm

A guy over on the Saab forums just got his done for £45, including adjustment.

Don't forget about the ball joints first ;)
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 20th May 2019 - 10:52pm

👍 that's cheap for 4 wheels. See what Saturday. Brings.
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sparkywig
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by sparkywig » 21st May 2019 - 10:34am

There's a chap in Bristol that does 4 wheel alignment, corner weights, etc on race cars, and is reasonably priced.
I'd try and find a motorsport place near you to set it up.

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 21st May 2019 - 8:52pm

Will give it a bash, might get 4 scales from an American supplier and corner weight it myself. Who knows, I starting to feel like money and lasers will bring joy
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 21st May 2019 - 9:37pm

Breif update. I had set the bottom ball joints at opposite offsets. So I expct that has entirely cocked things up, ive yet to drive it. Id no idea which way is the correct way to have them until I go and recover and old one. But the fact theyre both the same is a pluss, if it doesnt work ill just spin them the other way. Progress, maybe?
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 21st May 2019 - 9:50pm

Progress, definitely :)

Is the final post in this thread of use ?

viewtopic.php?t=6133
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 21st May 2019 - 9:54pm

Unfortunately thats why I already know. But the replacement ball joints have no marks. But im holding my breath that the old ones are in a big box of front axel stuff round my parents house. If i can recover one and reference it against a new one. I can see wether it should set with the wide or narrower bottom track.
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 21st May 2019 - 10:09pm

David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 21st May 2019 - 10:23pm

Ahh, that is news. I'm thinking wide and narrow. They're saying fore and aft. I will recover and old one and do some photography. It will explain it for young and old.
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 22nd May 2019 - 9:51pm

Lets see if my descriptive powers and rough sketches can explain this then.

I suspected the issue lay with the bottom ball joints, as theyre eccentric ive since realised this effectively gives adjustable caster.

Remembering I had a set of old arms at my parents I popped in this evening and collected them, just to get my hands on the old ball joints. This joints have the groove in them, where as my febi replacements didnt have a groove in them for alignmen, thus not giving me and clue how to orientate them. Always prefering to understand what and why im digging a littler deeper than "line this notch up with a mark because the manual says to" I wanted to know what the orientation is when things were lined up.

The manual states these are to be installed with this cut out facing forwards. This is a very old but original ball join, you can see the notch in the top.

Image

Two steps back, using these highly accurate technical drawings, clearly I didnt remember to set this up when I installed them. This is how the car was set.

Image

Once this had been realised I rotated one to get the offset symetrical.

Image

With me so far? I know those complex drawings are hard to understand!

Following on from davids samba links, I then took a look at an original item. You can see here its clearly and ofset backways which i believe is supposed to provide some positve caster.

Image

I drove the car this evening with the ball joints in the symetrical set up and it is 90% better, theres a slight left pull. But its next to nothing by comparison to the previous set up.

Obviously I now need to turn my ball joints a further 90 degrees to introduce this correct caster. Then I shouldnt have too much trouble setting camber and toe. As yet it may not be right but at least I now understand what the hell was wrong and why I couldnt get anywhere close.
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 22nd May 2019 - 10:15pm

Fantastic news :D :D :D :D

I couldn't have you taking the car somewhere else ;)

I haven't re-read those Samba links, but I seem to remember that it said that the bottom ball joints were fixed and the adjustable ones were fitted to the top, but I may have mis-remembered. It's more difficult when you haven't got a type 3 :roll:
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 22nd May 2019 - 10:18pm

Youre half right. Its more that the bottom ones should be set with the notch forward and then not adjusted at all. Now I know what "the notch forward" actually relates to in a geometry sense I can set mine up correctly.
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 16th June 2019 - 4:14pm

Any update on this broady, wheels all pointing the right way, handling like a dream, put a thousand miles on the clock I'm having so much fun ?
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 16th June 2019 - 8:10pm

No update at all, ive had a few runs out. But the weathers been so changable I havent gone far, nor have i focused on the direction of the wheels. Im enjoying the break. I have done a few odd jobs. Blasted and painted my sill trims.

Really what I need to do is tidy/sort the garage. Loads cant be got rid of now I know where I am at with the car and it will make it a much nicer more inviting environment. Then ill start to get interested. Oh and the fact its bearly got above 10 degrees for over a week hasnt helped!
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 16th June 2019 - 8:24pm

I know the feeling. Having done an engine swap including auto >manual change and a substantial amount of breaking of the Saab I spent a good bit of time tidying up last week. Parts, tools to be cleaned, hoists and engine stands to be put away. Much better when it is done.

A few sunny days and the sap will rise again :)
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 8th July 2019 - 8:47pm

Well the garage is some what cleaner. Some junk sold some scrapped. Its a much nicer more organised place.

Yesterday I even began pottering with the car and now have a working bonnet release. It was a fun couple of hours
The sultan of swing

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