Engine rebuild project

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haz
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Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 25th May 2013 - 4:19am

Since we now have such a great influx of members & knowledge here due to the recent closure of the other forum I have decided to take advantage of the situation & go for a full engine rebuild on my fasty.

Ive been considering it for a while but pulled the engine out a few weeks back to do the clutch and found "slightly" :wink: more end float than is acceptable together with a bit of smoking & apparently over 200'000mlies on the original engine decided that rather than put it back in and hope for the best I’m going to bite the bullet & get stuck in.

Never done a rebuild before, so help, help, & more help is the order of the day! Plan is to read up on it over the next few weeks while I strip & clean + assemble the parts I might / should need.

Im in Nz but think I can find local machinists to do the case work, check & grind the crank, balance the engine etc etc.

The details & plan, Its a 1971 1600 twin carb fastback, stock mechanicals. Want to make this as easy as possible so not going to stay fairly stock,

-Defiantly new Ps & Cs but still 1600’s
-Think a Engle 100.
-Max/high flow oil pump.
-Replace the cylinder heads.
-Dont honestly know what to do for carbs, we have shingle for about 1k from the house so aftermarket would need either very good filters or to be ducted into the trunk!
-Obviously new bearings.
-Prob keep the same distributor set up, leads are new but change the coil.
-Generator overhaul.
-Running a single quiet pack at the mo but might see how the budget is looking at the end & get one of those real nice tuck away’s the metric nut do.

Thats about as far as the plan goes right now, any suggestions greatly appreciated, should start pulling it apart in the next week or two.

haz
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Location: Central South Island NZ

Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 25th May 2013 - 4:24am

The patient,

Image

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Any advices on what carbs & filters to go for would be helpful?

haz
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Location: Central South Island NZ

Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 26th May 2013 - 10:50pm

So Ive got a thread running on my local (NZ) forum on this also and been getting some feed back, mainly that the Full flow the oil system is worth doing rather than just using a high flow pump but also it has been suggested that going up to 1776cc is not actually that much more cost or work;
If you go to a engle 100, a set of decent single springs and new heads and you will be sweet. You will be rebuilding and probably line boring the bottom end, its a good idea to surface the cylinder area because it will have taken a beating over the years, and while you are at it, boring for P and Cs shouldn't break the bank !! I would say it is likely the old p+Cs are flogged anyway so the true cost is the diff between stds and 90.5's plus the boring... Worth the effort, noticeable difference, as reliable as stock
Not convinced I want to start down the performance route, any thoughts on 1776's in type3's?, cooling issues, breaks, gearboxes etc etc?

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broady_6
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by broady_6 » 27th May 2013 - 10:41pm

gearboxs will be fine, they can handle 100hp. as long as your not trying to do burnouts
The sultan of swing

haz
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 3rd June 2013 - 11:01pm

Out of interest, been told that with the full flow mods;
The gene berg type 3 full flow kit is a pretty good option but last time I used one we had to clearance the fan shroud, and If you are running a later type 3 with the moustache bar engine mount you will need to clearance that quite a bit.
Any thoughts on that or if there are kits that dont require 'clearancing' of other parts?

Also had been suggested that I use a high flow oil pump but also since been told that a 30mm pump will actually cause more issues, basicly it pumps too much oil pressure, and the vw engine has bypass valves that divert oil away from the oil cooler when it has too much pressure. Therefore running a high flow pump will put too much pressure in the system, the oil will divert around the cooler, And your engine will overheat, any thoughts?

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jmarkha1
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by jmarkha1 » 4th June 2013 - 8:12am

CSP do a oil fitting that fits to the main gallery at the bottom of the engine - then use a full flow pump outlet (limited clearance issues) and block the main inlet on the pump with a threaded plug.
That way you get full flow without case machining and limited issues with fan housing.
Just need to get the case tapped for the oil plug at the pump...
But if its a stockish motor - why bother?
30mm pump is way too much - 26mm will handle needs for most performance motors - good luck with the build.
The variant Project

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broady_6
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by broady_6 » 4th June 2013 - 9:44pm

a standard oil pump is more than good enough if its new. If your starting to run full flowed system you will need more capacity are theres a bigger area to pressurize. as has been said 26mm will be more than good enough. 30 is way to big!
The sultan of swing

haz
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 4th June 2013 - 11:37pm

Think the main reason behind suggesting full flow was the better filtration & the added cooling from the pipe work & filter.

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broady_6
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by broady_6 » 7th June 2013 - 8:50pm

yeah the filtration is a good idea if you can afford it
The sultan of swing

haz
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 7th June 2013 - 11:57pm

Cant say Im that keen on modifying my fan housing & support bar etc so would prefer to stay with the stock oil set up, would the 26mm standard pump system still be ok if I went 1776 then or is it a bit risky?

My thinking is the filtration is just as desirable either stock or performance so its whether you need the extra cooling provided by full flow.

Mean while, it keeps getting smaller,, must say Im relieved how simple it looks once all the air-ware is removed, looking at the state of it I defiantly feel like im doing the right thing rebuilding the old horse, dont want to tell you how loose the fan felt, and it had to be drawn off the shaft before you say they are only loose on the shaft!

Image

Got to get outside with a tank of petrol soon as it warms up a bit & get some cleaning up done, not found anything to bad yet, a broken hacksaw blade under the generator to tension it & bits of broken belt blown all through the pistons, wonder how hot it got before they noticed!

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jmarkha1
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by jmarkha1 » 8th June 2013 - 7:57am

26mm pump will be more than enough - the shadek pumps are good quality. Performance motors up to 2400cc use them - 1776 will be absolutely fine.
Full flow will always help oil quality and temps - whether stock or performance - good luck with the project.
The variant Project

haz
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 24th August 2013 - 11:32pm

So,

At last after much ignoring the lump under the sheet in the garage Ive finally got around to moving on with this,

only a couple of concerns so far,

- Ive broken the Bakelite part that the fuel pump drives through in trying to get it out so will have to replace this.

- The rocker shafts are pretty worn, looks like they have not been turned so I should be able to put them in the other way up an be good for another 200'ks!!, looks like one had picked up on the shaft though?

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- Of no consequence as I will be replacing them but the pistons look like they were passing?, not that Ive seen any others to compare though, the ring gaps actually look good but a few of the joins had found there way to the bottom of the piston.

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Plenty of carbon / oil build up in the combustion chamber!

- Good news no studs have failed,

-Im very tempted to go 1776 if I can find a shop to do the work without requiring me to know what / how to do it.

Next up is splitting the case, hoping I dont find any nastys in there, then is cleaning cleaning cleaning before I get my A into G an look at machining & ordering the new parts.

Image

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Editor
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by Editor » 25th August 2013 - 12:52am

The ring gaps do migrate anyway - every few years mine have lined up for a month or two and blown a puff of smoke on start-up, but that hasn't happened for a few years now. I think it only tended to happen when parked at the kerbside, and I don't think it's done it since being parked flatter.
Dave.

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broady_6
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by broady_6 » 25th August 2013 - 8:25pm

yeah, nothing to unexpected there. i seriously wouldnt bother with 1776, just in a good 1600 theyre faultless
The sultan of swing

haz
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 26th August 2013 - 12:35am

Thanks for the reply's,

Im just starting to have a good read up on mods so will decide on the 1600<1776 thing before to long.

So do you think I should bin the rocker shafts or just turn them over? I haven't had a really good look at the rocker bores yet.

Harley2012
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by Harley2012 » 21st September 2013 - 2:40pm

Any more news on this rebuild. I'm currently in the same position. I'm going for the 1776 and twin 40's, amount others things that I'm sure I'm not aware of yet. I've stripped it down as far as I can up to splitting the case. Just collating a list of other things to buy.
Be good to see/hear where you're at Haz.

haz
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 22nd September 2013 - 4:06am

Sounds like were in just about the same place, Im just trying to work out what to build & what to buy but will be splitting the case soon, just not in a real hurry to get it all done, set my self a dead line of a show next easter as a up & running target!!

Im prob going to stay 1600 or maybe 1641 but think I might go for tuned heads & valve sets rather than the machining & extra work to get to a 1776, what made you choose to go down that road & have you done it before or have some one who knows what there doing helping you?

Ive not planned my carbs yet, I dont have a budget really just that I want to keep cost under control as much as possible!!!

Biggest dilemma I have is other than a long time ago when I knew a guy with a very very tuned 1641 high compression beetle Ive never been in a tuned 1641 or a 1776 to know what they perform like, my thoughts are bolt on tuning is possibly going to be less work / problems than machining etc for 1776 an Im not really looking to build a race car just a nice pokey toy.

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Marko
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by Marko » 22nd September 2013 - 6:39am

if you're staying with 1600 or 1641 I would keep stock Solex carbs, they are the best carbs for stock engine. find a decent pair with stock air filter system and get them re-bushed and rebuilt and you will be happy.
my 1968 Fastback Automatic build thread
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Harley2012
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by Harley2012 » 22nd September 2013 - 9:15am

I've always loved cars and bikes and done engine work before, but ever had anything Aircooled. The reason I've decided to go for the 1776 is because lots of people I've spoken to say this is the middle of the road engine for performance, reliability and fuel consumption. A mate of mine won a 1776 from Airspeed (now gone bust I believe) in a magazine competition, he's running 34 ict carbs. He uses it as a daily driver and it runs sweet, also it goes up hills loads better than my T4 ever did.
I've been pestering engine builders for info at show etc and have now found a bloke who did his apprenticeship at VW in 1969. He builds and uses Aircooled cars for hill climbs. He's doing me a list of options available such as carbs, cams... I'm popping back up tomorrow to see him and go through the list.
I'd like to have something running for next years show season too. Got loads of body work to do first though.

haz
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 23rd September 2013 - 7:32am

Sounds like you are in a sweet place, to be honest one of the big things holding me off from going for the 1776 is the fact that I dont know anyone who who be able to help hands on without charging to do so that is!!

I would be very interested in reading what specs / work he's suggesting for the engine, if it came to it that machine shop work is the only real difference then I could be swayed more rather then trying to put together a 1600.

I was thinking at this stage of possibly larger valve flowed heads with high lift rocker sets & a 110 cam with full flow oil then carbs to suit, my solex are not flash & might save the headache of trying to overhaul to simply replace with after market. I do really want to keep it simple as Im new to this & dont really know anything about building engines or what combinations work best!!

Harley2012
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by Harley2012 » 23rd September 2013 - 2:54pm

Right... The bloke has now mentioned something else worth thinking about. He has a type 4 engine sat around running that would go straight into my type 3. Although doing my first bit of research it shows that there are a few mods that need doing to make it right.
Kind of want to stick to the original engine really... I'll keep researching to see what I find. I've left the casing with him to check out to see if it's ok to bore out before I make a decision. I'll have to machine the heads to match the casing too.

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Creationblue
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by Creationblue » 24th September 2013 - 8:59pm

I got a 1776 built 2 years ago by Interpro in Bristol for my Earlybay and its superb! It runs CB crank, Mahle pistons with standard heads with 40IDFs and makes 92bhp.

Good luck with the build
Way out west

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haz
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 25th September 2013 - 5:06am

Thats what appeals to me about the 1776 option, most of the work is done by the machine shop & you dont need to go mad with the up grades as the power in crease in in the cc's not the higher performance parts.

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Creationblue
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by Creationblue » 25th September 2013 - 6:47pm

haz wrote:Thats what appeals to me about the 1776 option, most of the work is done by the machine shop & you dont need to go mad with the up grades as the power in crease in in the cc's not the higher performance parts.
You can go wild with it with big valves if you want too that's the beauty of it, though around 95bhp will give good proformance with bullet proof reliability
Way out west

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http://www.solutionselectrical.co.uk

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haz
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Re: Engine rebuild project

Post by haz » 8th October 2013 - 3:03am

Well,

No physical progress with this but,,, lots of web site shopping & planning been going on!

So, at the present plan,, Im going to go for a 1776 upgrade, aside from the posts on here the main thing that convinced me was reading books on tuning & rebuilding & the comments on how the easiest & most reliable way to more power was cc increase & the relative low cost increase of this conversion has so far sold me on it.
Ive spoken to HPE in chch about doing the machining work & so hopefully they will pretty much take care of all the technical stuff, going to get them to measure for the bearings & bore out, machining the piston decks & open up to 90.5, stud save the case, tap the oil gallery’s & block for full flow, check the crank, balance the assembly etc.

So the plan im hatching is as follows,

1776cc,
L3 stocker plus high flow heads, standard valves,
New rocker assembly’s but stock ratio,
w100 cam,
Stock crank & stroke,
I was told to use twin dual 40's with these heads by one of the vw parts suppliers but 34's are about half the price so I might have to settle for those, any suggestions here would be helpful,
Stock dizzy due to the special angle on No3 cylinder on a type3,
Full flow oil by using a adaptor plate as im not confident about doing the welding option,
Stock fly but balanced as im told type3s dont take well to lightening due to their heavier weight,
Exhaust set up from the metric nut.

So the ‘few’ questions you can feel free to answer are;-

Should I have a 8 dowel conversion done for this build?
What compression ratio would be good for this set up?
Should I go for ratio rockers?
What carbs, (Mark what spec where the kit you quoted)?
What’s the expected Hp of this engine / would I need to worry about getting stung for certification due to the increase?

And of course feel free to comment or offer advice :wink:

Cheers!

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